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Subject: Wraith combat stance? rss

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Josh Buchanan
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If a one shot damages wraith, is the villain itself considered the target so that combat stance would apply?
 
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Benj Davis
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All the cards tell you the source of the damage. Many villain one-shots will tell you that the villain damages you, some have you damaging yourself, which avoids retaliation from things like Combat Stance or Ra's wall of fire.
 
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Chris D
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Jlerpy wrote:
All the cards tell you the source of the damage. Many some have you damaging yourself, which avoids retaliation from things like Combat Stance or Ra's wall of fire.

Incorrect, infact if Wraith has Combat Stance in play, if any hero hits her including herself, she will than deal that target damage as well. It makes it a really risky card to play against Plague Rat if she is infected as she would hit herself due to infection and than hit herself again thanks to Combat Stance.
 
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Josh
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Actually you're both right. He meant the villain's one shot would avoid the retaliation. So you were incorrect in calling him incorrect, but the scenario you presented was also correct.
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Benj Davis
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Ronway wrote:
Jlerpy wrote:
All the cards tell you the source of the damage. Many some have you damaging yourself, which avoids retaliation from things like Combat Stance or Ra's wall of fire.

Incorrect, infact if Wraith has Combat Stance in play, if any hero hits her including herself, she will than deal that target damage as well. It makes it a really risky card to play against Plague Rat if she is infected as she would hit herself due to infection and than hit herself again thanks to Combat Stance.


Yes, I meant that the villain avoids retribution for it.
 
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Chris D
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How would the Villain be avoiding retaliation? He didn't do any damage, the heroes dealt themselves damage. Sure it was a villain card making the heroes do themselves damage. It doesn't say anything like "The villain makes the hero deal themselves X damage" it simply says "hero deals themselves X damage" the villain is standing there watching heroes hurt themselves or each other.
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Matthew M
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Combat Stance does damage to the target that deals damage to you. If no target is specified as the source of the damage then Combat Stance doesn't trigger. If Wraith deals damage to herself, even if by a Villain card, then she is the target that Combat Stance deals damage to.

-MMM
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Josh
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Ronway wrote:
How would the Villain be avoiding retaliation? He didn't do any damage, the heroes dealt themselves damage. Sure it was a villain card making the heroes do themselves damage. It doesn't say anything like "The villain makes the hero deal themselves X damage" it simply says "hero deals themselves X damage" the villain is standing there watching heroes hurt themselves or each other.


Dude, you're arguing semantics. The Villain card causes the effect. But the source of the damage is the other hero card. You're making this much harder than you have to ^^
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Chris D
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Shadrach wrote:
Ronway wrote:
How would the Villain be avoiding retaliation? He didn't do any damage, the heroes dealt themselves damage. Sure it was a villain card making the heroes do themselves damage. It doesn't say anything like "The villain makes the hero deal themselves X damage" it simply says "hero deals themselves X damage" the villain is standing there watching heroes hurt themselves or each other.


Dude, you're arguing semantics. The Villain card causes the effect. But the source of the damage is the other hero card. You're making this much harder than you have to ^^


I'm well aware of how it works. I'm just saying that the Villain wouldn't have to avoid something that isn't being directed at it.

This game lives off theme, and picturing Osiris ducking out of the way from Wraith hitting herself twice just because he triggered it doesn't sound very thematic. Now Wraith smacking herself to try and snap out of the mental stress Osiris is putting on her while he overlooks is.
 
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Josh
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Ronway wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Ronway wrote:
How would the Villain be avoiding retaliation? He didn't do any damage, the heroes dealt themselves damage. Sure it was a villain card making the heroes do themselves damage. It doesn't say anything like "The villain makes the hero deal themselves X damage" it simply says "hero deals themselves X damage" the villain is standing there watching heroes hurt themselves or each other.


Dude, you're arguing semantics. The Villain card causes the effect. But the source of the damage is the other hero card. You're making this much harder than you have to ^^


I'm well aware of how it works. I'm just saying that the Villain wouldn't have to avoid something that isn't being directed at it.

This game lives off theme, and picturing Osiris ducking out of the way from Wraith hitting herself twice just because he triggered it doesn't sound very thematic. Now Wraith smacking herself to try and snap out of the mental stress Osiris is putting on her while he overlooks is.


But... he was asking a mechanics question...
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Shadrach wrote:
Actually you're both right. He meant the villain's one shot would avoid the retaliation. So you were incorrect in calling him incorrect, but the scenario you presented was also correct.

The Villain one shot is not a thing that can avoid retalliation, it is not a target, combat stance only hits targets so there is nothing for the one shot itself to avoid.
The target that the one shot says is dealing the damage will always be the one that combat stance hits.
 
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Josh
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Matchstickman wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Actually you're both right. He meant the villain's one shot would avoid the retaliation. So you were incorrect in calling him incorrect, but the scenario you presented was also correct.

The Villain one shot is not a thing that can avoid retalliation, it is not a target, combat stance only hits targets so there is nothing for the one shot itself to avoid.
The target that the one shot says is dealing the damage will always be the one that combat stance hits.


I surrender ^^
 
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Tim Stellmach
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I see no evidence yet that both sides in this argument have any idea what the other side is even saying.
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Matthew M
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I understand that one is using a very literal definition of "avoid" and the other is using it more figuratively.

In either case, this is what I call a fight between people who are in violent agreement with one another.
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Roberta Yang
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Against villains with the same sort of "I attack anyone who damages me" effects (e.g. The Chairman, or Baron Blade with Backlash Field), making them attack themselves (e.g. redirecting their damage with Nightmist or using one of Promo Absolute Zero's incapacitated powers) is fun because it triggers their retaliation effects and makes them attack themselves again.

Getting the Operative to attack the Chairman is especially fun because you not only get the Chairman to attack the Operative in response but also increase both of their instances of damage by the Nemesis rule.
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Jon Ben
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salty53 wrote:
Getting the Operative to attack the Chairman is especially fun because you not only get the Chairman to attack the Operative in response but also increase both of their instances of damage by the Nemesis rule.


That's hilarious! I would probably house rule that away for thematic reasons. Do you have a thematic justification for that? If the original target was their nemesis hero I can understand, but otherwise it seems odd.
 
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Roberta Yang
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The way I've always seen it, the Nemesis rule is less about representing anything in particular in-universe and more about representing overall comic book narrative. I don't have a thematic justification for why Voss should be unusually good at punching Tempest, but I do know that heroes fighting their nemeses should be big and dramatic, which is represented in-game by a) making it have a bigger impact, and b) providing a bonus to encourage players to make it happen more often.

Similarly, the Operative and Chairman turning on each other should be a much bigger and more dramatic event than one of them fighting one of their underlings or something, so the Nemesis rule says hey, this is a big thing, it has a big impact and you players should try and make it happen. Similarly, heroes attacking each other will always be a major event, but Legacy striking Young Legacy really ought to be more important than Legacy striking Ra - and so the Nemesis rule says it is.
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Jon Ben
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salty53 wrote:
The way I've always seen it, the Nemesis rule is less about representing anything in particular in-universe and more about representing overall comic book narrative. I don't have a thematic justification for why Voss should be unusually good at punching Tempest, but I do know that heroes fighting their nemeses should be big and dramatic, which is represented in-game by a) making it have a bigger impact, and b) providing a bonus to encourage players to make it happen more often.

Similarly, the Operative and Chairman turning on each other should be a much bigger and more dramatic event than one of them fighting one of their underlings or something, so the Nemesis rule says hey, this is a big thing, it has a big impact and you players should try and make it happen. Similarly, heroes attacking each other will always be a major event, but Legacy striking Young Legacy really ought to be more important than Legacy striking Ra - and so the Nemesis rule says it is.


Yea I can buy into that, thanks for the explanation.
 
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Benj Davis
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salty53 wrote:
The way I've always seen it, the Nemesis rule is less about representing anything in particular in-universe and more about representing overall comic book narrative. I don't have a thematic justification for why Voss should be unusually good at punching Tempest, but I do know that heroes fighting their nemeses should be big and dramatic, which is represented in-game by a) making it have a bigger impact, and b) providing a bonus to encourage players to make it happen more often.

Similarly, the Operative and Chairman turning on each other should be a much bigger and more dramatic event than one of them fighting one of their underlings or something, so the Nemesis rule says hey, this is a big thing, it has a big impact and you players should try and make it happen. Similarly, heroes attacking each other will always be a major event, but Legacy striking Young Legacy really ought to be more important than Legacy striking Ra - and so the Nemesis rule says it is.


Heroes hitting each other (or themselves, for that matter) don't trigger the Nemesis rule, I think, as that specifically references villains.
 
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Roberta Yang
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Jlerpy wrote:
Heroes hitting each other (or themselves, for that matter) don't trigger the Nemesis rule, I think, as that specifically references villains.

So you think the icon on Anubis has no effect at all? Nobody gets a damage bonus for hitting themselves, but any time two different targets with the same icon hit each other, the bonus applies. Official confirmation here.
 
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Benj Davis
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salty53 wrote:
Jlerpy wrote:
Heroes hitting each other (or themselves, for that matter) don't trigger the Nemesis rule, I think, as that specifically references villains.

So you think the icon on Anubis has no effect at all? Nobody gets a damage bonus for hitting themselves, but any time two different targets with the same icon hit each other, the bonus applies. Official confirmation here.


I'd figured it was poorly worded, but counted for Environment cards like Anubis and the rat creatures in the Final Wasteland, but not heroes, because that's dumb.
 
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Roberta Yang
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If you check the rulebook, the actual rule refers to a hero and "another target", so if anything, Legacy attacking Young Legacy would get the damage boost but Anubis attacking the Ennead wouldn't. But that's silly.
 
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