True Blue Jon
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In these threads, we discuss the text and what we think of it. This discussion is open to everyone. I'm using the NIV translation.

Luke 14

One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. There in front of him was a man suffering from abnormal swelling of his body. Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?" But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him on his way.

Then he asked them, "If one of you has a child or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?" And they had nothing to say.

When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable: "When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, 'Give this person your seat.' Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, 'Friend, move up to a better place.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, "Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God."

Jesus replied: "A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.'

"But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.'

"Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.'

"Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.'

"The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.'

"'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.'

"Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.'"

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, 'This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.'

"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won't he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

"Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."
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Paul DeStefano
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quozl wrote:
Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?


Does salt lose saltiness?
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True Blue Jon
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From askascientist.co.uk:

Historically, salt has been obtained from crude sources such as salt marshes, and minerals such as rock salt. This contains the stable sodium chloride plus other components. Sodium chloride is readily water-soluble, so if this crude salt were exposed to condensation or rain water, the sodium chloride could be dissolved and removed, and the salt could in effect lose its saltiness.
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Paul DeStefano
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quozl wrote:
From askascientist.co.uk:

Historically, salt has been obtained from crude sources such as salt marshes, and minerals such as rock salt. This contains the stable sodium chloride plus other components. Sodium chloride is readily water-soluble, so if this crude salt were exposed to condensation or rain water, the sodium chloride could be dissolved and removed, and the salt could in effect lose its saltiness.


That's bizarre. But I guess biblical times had this 'unfiltered' salt. I wonder what you're left with.
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Geosphere wrote:
quozl wrote:
From askascientist.co.uk:

Historically, salt has been obtained from crude sources such as salt marshes, and minerals such as rock salt. This contains the stable sodium chloride plus other components. Sodium chloride is readily water-soluble, so if this crude salt were exposed to condensation or rain water, the sodium chloride could be dissolved and removed, and the salt could in effect lose its saltiness.


That's bizarre. But I guess biblical times had this 'unfiltered' salt. I wonder what you're left with.
I don't know if the bitters/nigari(JP sp?)/ calcium salts in sea water have a different solubilty to NaCl. If yes then the remains would be intense - something like bile.
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"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

"Honour thy father and mother that thy days may be long upon this earth"

And "the cross"? What was that in Judeah before the cruxifiction? Was "carry their cross" already a figure of speech? One that just got popularised by the Gospels not created by them?

Considering whether I need to hate my parents.
Maybe a verse aimed at rebelious teenagers?
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Josiah Fiscus
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Pinook wrote:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

"Honour thy father and mother that thy days may be long upon this earth"

And "the cross"? What was that in Judeah before the cruxifiction? Was "carry their cross" already a figure of speech? One that just got popularised by the Gospels not created by them?

Considering whether I need to hate my parents.
Maybe a verse aimed at rebelious teenagers?


I think "hate" is too strong a word in this translation, but the principle still fits.

In the same way, we are commanded to submit to the governing authorities. Yet many times, Godly people have rebelled against the government (Daniel, Paul, etc.) when the government tried to force them to act contrary to God's laws.

My parents are also believers. They are my brother and sister in Christ. Of course I don't need to "hate" them. But if they got in the way of my relationship with God, this passage is clear that God needs to take precedence, even if that means cutting off our relationship.
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Daniel Eig
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Quote:
One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. ... Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?" But they remained silent.


Man... apparently medical treatment on Shabbat was a hot button issue back then. Because this gets harped on over and over again.

Kind of a big yawn now, as Judaism adopted a position since then that appears to be closer to one Jesus would like.

Quote:
Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."


A worthy sentiment - don't give for the sake of a reward, but for the sake of those who need assistance.

Maimonides once made a ranking of the worthiness of Charity (in Judaism) . All charity is worthwhile - but the highest honor was reserved for those who helps someone help themselves out of poverty (whether a gift or an interest free loan is not distinguished). Below that is a gift where neither the recipient or the giver is known to each other. Below that when the gift giver does not know who receives, but his identity is known, etc. I think Jesus would approve of the overall message, even if its Pharisaic in its formulation and organization.

---

An interesting religious note - Jesus speaks of the universal resurrection of the righteous (supposed to occur after the Messiah establishes God's Kingdom on Earth).

Judaism lacks a formal idea of the afterlife, as its kind of besides the point. It could range to oblivion to all, to a quasi Christian-like Heaven/Purgatory split, to bodily resurrection on Earth for all, to even more exotic ideas.

But its interesting that this concept, which is popular even now, the bodily resurrection of the Righteous after God (through the Messiah) establishes His Kingdom on Earth, was current even then.

Quote:
Jesus, and turning to them he said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.


Harsh. This basically rules out most of the modern 1st world as being a disciple today. Also, as I learned in religious school, crazy cults tell you to cut off contact with your family. If a religious leader tells you to do so, they're no religious leader you should follow. Sorry Jesus, but I'm on to you!

Again with the post-crucifiction metaphor. Was this something well known before then - was Jesus just matching a known archetype of suffering? Ir just Luke slipping in a current figure of speech into a an archaic speech?
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True Blue Jon
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I'm pretty sure the Romans had people carry their crosses years before Jesus did.

Nobody wants to comment on the cool dinner guest scenario?
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Daniel Eig
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quozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Romans had people carry their crosses years before Jesus did.

Nobody wants to comment on the cool dinner guest scenario?


I'm not sure. Was it a common practice? It not, it could have an entirely different meaning to take the cross (maybe even a call to be executed).

In any case I'm fairly certain that no one carried a literal cross. You carried the crossbar, and then got hoisted onto a fixed tree or pole.

---

Whats so cool about the dinner guest scenario?

Its fairly obvious that something is very very wrong with the host (or his parties), and thats why everyone makes up silly excuses to avoid him, and he's forced to get scum off the street to eat with him (and even then, are they avoiding him)?
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I was referring to the seating arrangements.

As for the cross, what entirely different meaning do you get from it? I think Jesus was talking about execution (metaphorically). Right before it, he said you should hate your own life.
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Daniel Eig
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Ah... seating arrangements. Seems like good practical advice to me - gotta save face after all.

Bearing the Cross can have a lot of meanings. Post Jesus it could refer to bearing the burden of sin (yours or others) or it could be a metaphor refering to keeping a stiff upper lip in the face of adversity, or to bearing the burdens of others, or even a metaphor for bearing a heavy burden in general. It could refer to going to your own (shameful) execution (which is what crucifixion was way back when - the fate of rebels, traitors, and scum). It could mean something else entirely lost in time.
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