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Subject: Honest request: Remind me why I should still play? rss

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Randall Barnes
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The 2 top decks (yeah, yeah its debatable) on each side have almost no interaction, don't seem to give any sort of feeling of accomplishment when you win, and are just frustrating when you play against them. (I'm calling Noise Workshop, Good-Stuff Gabe, Scorched Earth, and Fast Advance the top 4.)

The game is still good when its something like Kate vs. Jinteki when you don't have an abundance of bypass tricks and there a traps to worry about and agendas take a couple of turns, but unless your entire group plays with the idea that this is the way to play, you're going to lose a lot more than you win.

If the wins aren't satisfying, the loses are an exercise is frustration and helplessness, or you win once in a blue moon, why do we play?

As a defense before I get flamed, I was one of the biggest advocates for this game, was excited when it came out, have built a community, organized tournaments, and defended against that naysayers. I guess I'm just frustrated right now...
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I found myself similarly frustrated with the game and have taken a break from playing it. I found that after I mastered my build, the deck played itself. Against other "top" decks the game devolved to luck. Lots of people will disagree with me, that's fine.
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B C Z
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swingjunkie wrote:
The 2 top decks (yeah, yeah its debatable) on each side have almost no interaction, don't seem to give any sort of feeling of accomplishment when you win, and are just frustrating when you play against them. (I'm calling Noise Workshop, Good-Stuff Gabe, Scorched Earth, and Fast Advance the top 4.)


If these are the 'top decks', are you spending your time playing them, or finding the counters to them?
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Arto H
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I feel every CCG/LCG goes to stronger and more defined metagame when it has been out for sometime. However, Netrunner can evolve totally with just one data pack release. I don't find current metagame stale at all. I feel the beauty of the CCG/LCGs is trying to read the meta also and it adds another dimension to the game but of course it is not everything.

I agree that some factions are bit lacking (looking at you Jinteki). But you say top4 (which I don't agree with and I feel is bit more complicated) are Noise Workshop, Good-Stuff Gabe, Scorched Earth, and Fast Advance. Scorched Earth can be made from NBN and Weyland. Fast Advance can be NBN and HB. So with your definition 2/3 runners are in top4 and 3/4 out of corps are top4 also. That is amazing balancing when you consider how few cards there are.

My suggestion would be to wait to at least more expansions are released and think about this issue more then.
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Justin
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Like all other games in this genre, the meta-game is all important. If you just want to play casually and have fun, then you can play any deck concept you'd like. But, if you want to be competitive at a tournament, then you have to construct your own deck with your local meta firmly in mind. I will make no comment about how effectively one is able to counter these top decks as of A Study in Static. I just trust that the meta will continue to develop and change as it has been doing over the first two thirds of the Genesis cycle.
 
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Richard Poole
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1. It's an LCG. Noise Workshop and Fast Advance didn't really work (or exist, in Workshop's case) without the tricks that enabled them recently. Scorched Earth was brutal until the tricks that disabled it (carapace, anti-tag tech, more runner econ, etc). In another three months, there'll be other top decks again if FFG knows what it's doing. And it very well could. And the new decks can only be more fun, right?

2. Not everyone has to play win-at-all-costs all the time. If you have a community (as stated), start a casual night where nobody plays virus mill or the nastier forms of fast advance.

3. It could still be fun?
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Steven Tu
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So I guess Magic's creature slug-fest is what everyone wants for a nice, balanced, interesting game?
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Randall Barnes
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BT,

The problem is that they are the "top decks" BECAUSE they're so hard to counter. Also, if there is minimal interaction, it becomes difficult to counter them.
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Josh C
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Why still play?

Because less than one Base Set of Magic's worth of cards have been released. The fact this is spread over a 9 month span (since Gen Con) makes it seem more significant than it is. But, in truth, the first "expansion" hasn't even been fully released yet. 55 more cards drop in one nice box right after that. We've already seen one card coming that helps neuter fast advance, and who knows what else is coming?

Based on the sales numbers, this game will likely be around for years. The reason to keep playing is that, in those ensuing years, literally dozens of new strategies will pop up and be created. Old strategies will be reinvited. New mechanics will be added. Despite threads to the contrary on BGG, there's no reason to think the quality of the game is about to take a nosedive. Some of the new strategies you'll love. Some you won't. But the interaction between them will be fun, which is the whole point of playing a 'game.'

So why should you keep playing? Because you ain't seen nothing yet. And if you leave now, you'll miss out after essentially saying "Well, I don't like how the cards in Innistrad play together, so I'm going to quit Magic forever." Just my opinion, but I think that would be a mistake if you otherwise like the game.
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Wesley Kinslow
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You could always wait for less than a month for the next data pack and see if that balances things out.

 
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Randall Barnes
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I didn't say Magic was fun either, Tu.
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Joel Tamburo
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I wouldn't necessarily agree those are the Top 4 really. Already we are seeing deck builds to counter Noise's virus mill and I expect we'll see cards soon that also attack it and other "top" archetypes.

I played a really rudimentary Jinteki deck against a Noise miller a couple of days ago and smoked him. It is a simple build that adds anti-Runner income cards to Jinteki. Noise needs money to pull his milling - a cash poor Noise is actually pretty pitiful if they built to mill.
 
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Anon Y. Mous
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Remember when the complaint about Anarchs was that they were unplayably weak?
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Josh C
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swingjunkie wrote:
BT,

The problem is that they are the "top decks" BECAUSE they're so hard to counter. Also, if there is minimal interaction, it becomes difficult to counter them.


This is likely a function of one "expansion" (or a normal CCG) being split up into six mini-expansions for the LCG model. Everyone cried about Scorched Earth. And then there's Plascrete Carapace.

Now Fast Advance is strong, but here comes a program to increase the advancement cost of agendas. Personal Workshop is strong, but it's a resource and NBN is about to get a new identity that will (presumably) make tagging and trashing resources more prevalent (by virtue of increasing NBN play). The forums are going all Chicken Little on this story when we're barely past the halfway mark of the second chapter.
 
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James 3
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most regionals reports i see dont feature Noise workshop at all and multiple corp builds were at the top including big ice and SE combo, not just fast advance, though i admit FA is really good (though comes in many flavors).

i dont think the game excels at tournament play due to time and scoring issues, but its super fun to play and there is alot of variety to explore if you have a good player base or even just a few friends into deck building. thats not enough to be a great game for you? i dont think he meta is as stale as you suggest, but if youll be unhappy unless playing THE best deck and against THE best deck, always and forever.../shrug. Magic is pretty boring in a defined constructed meta too at many/most points if you play alot.

i dont think FFG will ever make their lcgs as satisfying from a hyper competitive standpoint as MtG, but I don't think thats a deal breaker at all.
 
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Steven Tu
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swingjunkie wrote:
I didn't say Magic was fun either, Tu.


But if you're saying the game sucks because it "lacks interaction", then you're saying "interaction" is great. Magic's recent "balancing act" has been about making the creatures centre-stage, to counter exactly what you're talking about - the supposed lack of interaction that full-spell decks were supposedly creating.

So, I'm just saying, is that what you want? Genuinely! Not really dissing Magic or your appraisal.

This game will have luck in it. Successful runner decks maximise the effect of access (and minimise it on corp side), and basically it's the principle of the more you gamble, the bigger your chances. When the two sides are completely evenly matched, then it's down to luck.

But which game isn't like that?

To eliminate luck from this game is to... Make more tutor cards, heck, let the runner tutor for the corp's agenda and let the corp tutor for their agenda (which is why Atlas is so strong!). Is that what you want?

I dunno, you say it's not fun, so what do you think will make it fun?

Again, I'm not being antagonistic, I'm trying to make sense of the sentiment


--------------------

Oh and of course there's still like a million ways that the game is going to change, part of the fun of LCGs is to follow that meta change New strategies become available, old strategies die. It's super interesting, and if you quit because the current game seems "staid" to you, you're missing the point of the monthly release cycles

Monthly!
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Arto H
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swingjunkie wrote:
I didn't say Magic was fun either, Tu.


I could think also that CCG/LCGs might not be for you. Especially you should think why you don't like MTG. You can't just build a random deck to tournament and expect to win with these kind of games.

Good thing with Netrunner is that there is bit more random when compared to other CCGs (my opinion) and metagaming is not so ruthless so you always feel you have some chance.
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LC
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Well, that's, like, your opinion, man
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One person's strengths are another's weakness regarding this game.

It's harder to set up a "draft" or some kind of random deck for playing Netrunner than Magic, for example.

Some people love the deckbuilding aspects of this game. Others are put off by how it works.

The game is not one everyone will like. And I can see how one would grow weary of it, particularly if deckbuilding was not a primary focus they enjoy.
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Randall Barnes
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Fair enough guys. I guess I'm just playing people that ARE hyper-competitive and analytical or who really don't invest any effort at all, so I lose or crush. It may just be that I play with apathetic people. I really didn't mean to bash the game, like I said its really just momentary frustration. Deep down I like the game too much to quit I guess, I just need to figure out what to change.
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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I'm not having any problem in playing this game. I defeat Noise Mill almost every time I play against him if I need to (not with fast advance or scorched earth) and I'm currently tweaking my Fast-Advance killer Kate. And I'm having fun while researching these counters.
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Lluluien
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swingjunkie wrote:
BT,

The problem is that they are the "top decks" BECAUSE they're so hard to counter. Also, if there is minimal interaction, it becomes difficult to counter them.


For what it's worth, I contend strongly that my Never Advance NBN is better than any Fast Advance NBN deck, and it gets its extra edge by encouraging interaction with the Runner.
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Austin Norris

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CoffeeRunner wrote:
I found myself similarly frustrated with the game and have taken a break from playing it. I found that after I mastered my build, the deck played itself. Against other "top" decks the game devolved to luck. Lots of people will disagree with me, that's fine.


We are talking about the ccg/lcg genre as a whole right? As to why you should still play well it is a fun game a really we only have about 200 unique cards. In terms of magic that is less than the first set in a block. For those of you that have never played mtg that's basically no cards. Added to the fact you can't mix cards between runner that makes it around 100 cards per side. I don't even want to fully judge the game until two cycles are out, but to each their own. Every pack right now is causing massive shifts in the game, in 5 months who knows everything might change.
 
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Joel Tamburo
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DbZer0 wrote:
I'm not having any problem in playing this game. I defeat Noise Mill almost every time I play against him if I need to (not with fast advance or scorched earth) and I'm currently tweaking my Fast-Advance killer Kate. And I'm having fun while researching these counters.


Agreed - like I said I smoked Noise Mill with a deck that is decidedly not Fast Advance nor Scorched Earth. It is a riff on Jinteki no less.
 
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Lluluien
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Tuism wrote:

Oh and of course there's still like a million ways that the game is going to change, part of the fun of LCGs is to follow that meta change New strategies become available, old strategies die. It's super interesting, and if you quit because the current game seems "staid" to you, you're missing the point of the monthly release cycles

Monthly!


I second this. In the time it's taken me to write up one significant thread about my best deckbuilding experience and one article (just submitted to Darksbane yesterday!) about how to play NBN ICE, I'm already just a week away from having to update the damn ICE article already because there are new cards coming out.

This game moves at such a speed I can barely keep up with it. Trying to figure out how I can get more A:NR time... Still like my wife... Can't quit my job... No more sleep left to give up... Dammit!

If there are any independently wealthy patrons that would like to subsidize my A:NR play, I'm willing to submit a resume and cover letter
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David Kempe-Cook
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Ethereality wrote:
Remember when the complaint about Anarchs was that they were unplayably weak?


I have never heard that complaint.
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