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Subject: Harbor placement rss

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Mark Wilden
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I really don't understand harbors. Take generic harbors to start with:

The definition of a harbor is that it's at an intersection (elsewhere in the rules it says an "intersection" is made of three tiles, but here "intersection" apparently includes those made of two tiles). However, looking at the back cover of the rulebook, I see the harbor symbol on the top 11-tile is not near ANY kind of intersection. The harbor is apparently the top point. But what distinguishes that point from the one to the left of it?
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The Chaz
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I don't have access to the image you reference, but might still be able to help.
A harbor is the identification of consecutive vertices on a hexagon as offering a superior trading ratio to the 4:1 default, to the owner of a settlement or city on one of those vertices (on his turn).

The hexagon must be:
a) on the perimeter of the map
b) not adjacent to another hex with a harbor

The vertices chosen as the harbor must:
a) both be on the perimeter of the map
b) have a perpendicular bisector that passes through the maximal amount of hexes on the rest of the map. So if there are two options for how to orient the harbor on a given hex, you point it towards the longest path across the map.

That should clear things up
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J. Alex Kevern
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Harbors are placed every other tile around the perimeter, and always face the direction the map with more hexes.
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Mark Wilden
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I've seen terminology like this before. Where does it come from? Is there another, secret set of rules that actually makes sense in this regard?
 
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Mark Wilden
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Yes, I am more confused. You seem to be referring to a harbor as being composed of two vertices. Does that mean the settlement/city can go on either one to reap the benefit of the harbor?
 
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Mark Wilden
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mwilden wrote:
Yes, I am more confused. You seem to be referring to a harbor as being composed of two vertices. Does that mean the settlement/city can go on either one to reap the benefit of the harbor?
Ah. You did say the settlement can be one either one. That blows my mind and will blow the minds of the other players!

How would the average player learn this from the rules in the box, I wonder, especially when they don't make sense?

Thank you, guys.
 
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The Chaz
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Are you using an old copy of the game?
 
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Mark Wilden
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The Chaz wrote:
Are you using an old copy of the game?
i guess my copy is about two years old.
 
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Jörg Baumgartner
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mwilden wrote:
I've seen terminology like this before. Where does it come from? Is there another, secret set of rules that actually makes sense in this regard?

The original game (up to Mayfair 3rd edition) did not have a frame with harbors printed on, but a ring of sea hexes alternating between hexes with and without harbors.

Treat the frame sections as normal hexagons, then the terminology makes sense.
 
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Mark Wilden
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jorganos wrote:
mwilden wrote:
I've seen terminology like this before. Where does it come from? Is there another, secret set of rules that actually makes sense in this regard?

The original game (up to Mayfair 3rd edition) did not have a frame with harbors printed on, but a ring of sea hexes alternating between hexes with and without harbors.

Treat the frame sections as normal hexagons, then the terminology makes sense.
I'd still like to know where that terminology comes from. It's sure as hell not in the box.
 
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James Newton
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mwilden wrote:
jorganos wrote:
mwilden wrote:
I've seen terminology like this before. Where does it come from? Is there another, secret set of rules that actually makes sense in this regard?

The original game (up to Mayfair 3rd edition) did not have a frame with harbors printed on, but a ring of sea hexes alternating between hexes with and without harbors.

Treat the frame sections as normal hexagons, then the terminology makes sense.
I'd still like to know where that terminology comes from. It's sure as hell not in the box.

As Jorg said, it comes from the previous editions of the game.

In those editions there was no frame - instead the island was surround by sea hexes. Thus every settlement was built at the intersection of 3 hexes - either 3 land hexes, 2 land hexes and 1 sea hex, or 1 land hex and 2 sea hexes. When the 4th edition came out with the frame istead of the sea hexes, not all the references to settlements being built on the intersections of hexes were removed - this causes some confusion about building on some coastal positions, but you can build settlements on any corner of any (land) hex (subject to the minimum distance rule).

Similarly, the harbors were sea hexes with two (adjacent) intersections indicated as a harbor. Because these were individual hexes, there had to be rules about their placement - which is what was being quoted above. Again, when the 4th edition came out, with the frame, these rules were no longer necessary, and mostly removed from the rule book - but the odd bit of terminology still lingers.

Finally, note that the harbor tokens (or tiles in the older editions) indicate the locations for harbors - which are always two adjacent coastal corners (either marked as the two corners and a shipping lane, in the older editions, or shown as a natural harbor along the whole on one edge in the 4th edition). Think of this as a natural harbor in potentia - it only becomes a working harbor when a settlement is built, which will always be on one of the corners (and only one because of the distance rule). Thus the term harbor is used to refer to the location (the physical cove along the coast) and the settlement at one end of that location which is what allows you to trade.
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Mark Wilden
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Again, thanks to everybody for your helpful explanations. The epiphany for me was finding out that there are two settlement/city locations for a harbor.
 
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Mark Wilden
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And looking again at the 4th edition map, harbor placement is perfectly obvious. That's why nobody but me has ever had this problem. You just have to ignore what the rulebook says.
 
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Mik Svellov
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Buildup according to the official FAQ:
"Habors must be placed at land hexes in such a way that both Habor-intersections touch land."
This is the only rule, and there have never been any other official rules!
Dr. Reiner Düren/Klaus Teuber/Sebastian Rapp



 
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Reiner Dr. Düren
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The Chaz wrote:
...
b) have a perpendicular bisector that passes through the maximal amount of hexes on the rest of the map. So if there are two options for how to orient the harbor on a given hex, you point it towards the longest path across the map. ...


This isn't an official rule. Looking at this picture for the Portable Edition, you can see the lumber harbor in the lower left corner at mountains-3. According to this rule, this harbor should completely be placed at the forrest-4. And the 3:1-harbor at the mountains-9 would also be at the wrong position:



The only rules you should consider, are these:

1) A harbor has to border at two land intersections
2) There may not be 2 harbors on 1 sea hex
3) Two harbors may not border at the same intersection

With these rules, when playing with Seafarers, these harbors are not possible:

The ore-harbor borders only at one land intersection.
The lumber harbor and one 3:1-harbor borders at the same intersection
The two 3:1-harbors are placed on the same sea hex



But this is possible:


Regarding intersections: Also the sea should be separated in the mind into hexes, or at least pentagons when playing with the frame, although no lines can be seen on the board with the new editions.

Dr. Reiner Düren
Catan GmbH
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