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Subject: Whither the Soviet Steamroller? rss

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Patrick B
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In my current campaign game, I figured I was doing pretty well; by W42, I had stopped the Axis from Leningrad, Moscow, Sevastopol, and finally Stalingrad; he never even made it to the Caucasus.

I had all my units on the board, after 2 summers of intense Wehrmacht attack, and our armored groups fenced around for a few turns as my opponent tried to figure out if he could get around Stalingrad. He decided to plop himself down just west of Stalingrad, with a line starting at Rostov, bulging east, and heading slightly NW to his token groups surrounding Moscow.

So, I felt confident: every block built, the Soviets should be able to grind the Axis down, right? "Soviet build costs are half Axis" and all that. "The Axis can't win a war of attrition." So, I began attacking, and attacking. Once I got past the mud, and into clear, began attacking even more so. All the way through S43 and into W43...

And what has been accomplished? The Russian units are understrength, the HQ's all at 1's (or worse). Progress: after 6 months of fighting, the Axis have maybe pulled back 5 hexes. Still have Rostov. Still have Voronezh. And his units are full-strength, pretty much. He's had production points to spare every building cycle.

And why wouldn't he? The 'Soviet steamroller' seems to be myth. Counting up all the blocks, and all the CV, the armies are pretty much the same. Except that the Russian tank corp is full of 3 CV tanks, and infantry full of 3 CV units.

The Axis player has 4 blocks in every hex in the south, except in the places where he's behind a river (hex limits and repulses do most of the work for him there). One unit gets across a river? Then send in the SS tanks and armor to destroy it.

Attacking with the Soviets: the Axis reveals his usual 2 tanks and 2 inf, which take healthy portion of CV off the attackers, leaving them with less to do damage. If any Germans units get damaged enough, then he simply takes them out and rotates other 100% healthy units in, and then builds the damaged one back up again. High Production costs? Why worry, with 91 pp he can spend?

His HQ's with a range of 3, can command pretty much everywhere he needs. Russian HQ's with a range of 2: not so much. Have to activate more of them to get all those attacks going (to 'attrit' the Axis down, haha), and thus: 30-40 pp right there to get them back up a step, leaving hardly anything to build up the Soviets units which have taken a battering trying to move the Axis line back after 10 months.

So: doing better than the Soviets did historically, but losing the game, because the Axis opponent declines to do anything stupid like letting all his forces get encircled. Blitz to break through? Through 4 german blocks? And a single block behind those blocks? Not happening. And why would it?

If there was a 'Soviet Steamroller', sorry, don't see it being modeled here.
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Russ Williams
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I've not played enough to really comment usefully, but I'm curious if you're talking about solo (playing both sides) or a game vs an opponent.

Either way, is it not possible that the German side has simply been played a bit better than the USSR side?

PS: perhaps this should be moved to the game's Strategy forum?
 
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Patrick B
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Well, I won't say the german side was played badly; it was played quite well, in fact. But like I said: I did better than the Soviets did historically: they never took Sevastopol, never got near Leningrad (he decided not to attack there, or Moscow). Never even got into Stalingrad.

There might be a few 'well, just move a whole bunch of blocks to Moscow and attach from there'. Sure... with all the forest hexsides surrounding the Moscow area, that's a blitz of... one block. Maybe the blitz movement will get a 2nd block across; assuming the first one survived, that might do... something.

I don't think I'm talking strategy here, I'm talking that something isn't being modeled correctly here. Not with the huge number of blocks in the game. Cut the blocks by a third, and we'll talk.
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Sam Carroll
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Sounds to me like the German side was played better than historically - or at least more cautiously. Remember that historically, the Soviet Steamroller didn't get going until after the German losses at Kursk. If his forces are that strong, maybe you need to bait him into an attack.
 
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Patrick B
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Why attack? The German player just has to park a line running n/s west of Stalingrad, and just gradually fallback to victory by May45. He has no reason to do anything, except to take advantage of desperate Russian move that left Red's line dangerously undercovered.
 
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Paul Lags
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This can be a valid tactic. The German player needs to be able to win otherwise there wouldn't be any point playing on past S42. It however is trickier to pull off than you might think. My tips are:

-attack where they are weakest (but consider the bottom rule). Not just blocks but types/defensive terrain etc. He cannot be fully stacked across his entire line.
-snow is the soviets best friend, defensive lines become a lot less tenable once the rivers freeze over. German HQ power is diminished along with movement, those German infantry will quickly be left behind if you do manage a breakthrough. Success begets success.
- fortune favors the brave (sometimes), you might get beat up and achieve nothing, you might breakthrough. Doing nothing is guaranteed to achieve nothing though.
-Use FOW, this is vital in this game. A buildup of units on a narrow front could be your next big attack or could all be inf. Don't be obvious otherwise the defense is obvious.
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Patrick B
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Well, as I mentioned: 3-4 blocks in every hex to the south. Now, if you mean 'entire line' to extend all the way up north, then yes: up there, he has 1 block per hex. Of course, if I move units up there, so will he. Evenly matched again.

As for snow: there's nothing inherently impressive about it to the Russians. It provides no bonuses, no advantages; it slows down the Soviets as much as it slows down the Axis. "Axis HQ's are disrupted": well, that would be good, if it wasn't for the fact that the Axis isn't attacking at this point in the game.

As for "fortune follows the brave", not sure what that means here: Of course, the Soviets need to attack (I did it for 10 months). But that has nothing to do with my main point: the Soviet Steamroller, isn't.

Which leads to your next one: FOW. This brings up an important point: IF the Soviet player had enough blocks, he could actually use FOW to his advantage enough to break through. If there was enough of a block difference between the 2 sides by W42 or S43, then the Ruskies would have the ability to fool the Axis where the attack would come.

But that's the thing: there is NOT enough Russian blocks for this. The Soviets have just marginally more blocks than the Axis. Not what you would call a 'steamroller' at all; for that to be the case, they'd need alot more blocks than are here.

Don't get me wrong; Eastfront is excellent in it's handling of the first 1.5 years of the war on the eastern front. Barbarossa is terrific, with lots of tension as the Soviet player falls backwards, and tries to save his units while preventing from the Axis from taking all his important cities. The Axis player has a challenge, trying to press forward to eliminate enough units before his HQ's have all ground down, and the winter hits.

But, I just don't see any modeling of the Russian response, the endless units that just keep coming, wearing the Axis down. As far as I can see, no weardown is happening here, and why should it, if the Axis player just retreats slowly backwards, and not allowing himself to be destroyed by an ill-advised breakthrough attempt against the Soviets?
 
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LSU LSU
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How many times have you played?

Of course winter is a huge advantage to the Soviets. The German's might not be attacking, but they have to use more HQ's to defend. Shoot, that alone is a reason for the Soviet's to attack in the winter of 41. And the negation of river defense is an enormous issue for the attacker.
 
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Patrick B
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LSUtigers wrote:
How many times have you played?
Of course winter is a huge advantage to the Soviets. The German's might not be attacking, but they have to use more HQ's to defend. Shoot, that alone is a reason for the Soviet's to attack in the winter of 41. And the negation of river defense is an enormous issue for the attacker.

Not that it matters, but this my 4th Barbarossa as the Soviets.

As for the winters: well, no repulse. But again: so what? It makes crossing rivers easier, but if only 1-2 blocks can make it across (hexside limit of 1 still applies) to the German hex of 3 full-strength Axis units... what happens? Nothing. If over time, the Axis players has damaged units, he'll just rotate 100% healthy units in to replace most of the ones there.

"Use more HQ's to defend"... why? Why would the Axis player want to activate his HQ's? Doesn't need to.

I've got some ideas on things I can try in my current game, but I think my point stands: there is no 'war of attrition' with the Axis, due to a lack of any real pressure from a block imbalance. With number of blocks being mostly equal, and the Axis having better, stronger blocks: no "Soviet Steamroller" in evidence.
 
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LSUtigers wrote:
The German's might not be attacking, but they have to use more HQ's to defend. Shoot, that alone is a reason for the Soviet's to attack in the winter of 41.


I'm still a beginner at this game but I'm not sure I understand this statement. In the OP's scenario, I believe he's saying that the Axis remain passive during the Soviet offensive. The Axis would only use their HQs to disengage depleted units and engage new units into the established battles. They would only need to roll defensive fire, which don't require HQ.

I believe that the OP's scenario illustrates why Fog of War is so important in this game. If the Axis is being passive, shift the Allied units around. The enemy won't know if your units moving north are infantry or armor. Rather than trying to grind down the Axis, concentrate (ie 4 armor units and air support) and punch through a few key hexes, and then follow through. While the Axis retreats to fill in his holes, shift again and punch again.

In the winter, the Allies HQs have a larger command radius, so their units are more mobile than the Axis and can shift along the lines quicker. The Axis won't be able to keep up. You're not trying to grind down the Axis army so much as trying to shove him back to his border.
 
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Patrick B
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Thanks for the reply. You are correct as to my point, that the Axis doesn't need to activate.

"In the winter, the Allies HQs have a larger command radius, so their units are more mobile than the Axis and can shift along the lines quicker." The thing about this is: 3 Axis HQ's are all 3's. So, right after the monthly production... They're now all 2 range. Just like the Soviets. So, rather than winter making the Soviets better, it just makes them equal to the Axis in terms of HQ ability.

As I said before, any blocks you north or south, he can move blocks to counter. In fact, the more you use your HQ, the better he likes it: it only cost him 1/9 of his production to build it back up, while it costs the Russian player 1/6 of his production.

Anyway, what we have coming into this discussion are tips on beating the Axis player in this scenario. It doesn't address my main point: there is no Soviet Steamroller. Perhaps a Soviet Resurgence, at best. The Soviets, built up and at full strength, are not a problem for a Axis player, as long as he starts backing up slowly, and watching his flanks. Even with a Soviet player doing better than historical, it's not enough.
 
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LSU LSU
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Yes, the axis does have to activate to shift units in and out of the line. That's what I meant. It's harder and more expensive to do that in winter - which helps the soviets in the long run.

One last note - doing better than the soviets historically isn't just about where you are on the map - it's about how much strength the Germans have. If the Germans are slightly less far in than they were historically but at full strength, then you aren't ahead of the historical curve.
 
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Patrick B
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Generally, with the distance in the south, and with the help of his SHQ, he doesn't have much problem moving units and out of combat. And he certainly doesn't have to do that often.

As for the Axis units being healthy, that's a very good point: it completely contradicts the advice I've seen constantly given of "trade distance for time" for the Soviet player. It would seem the more important strategy would be hold the Axis on a line south of Moscow, and not let him pass; he'll bruise himself there to pieces.

Of course, if he breaks through, you can probably say goodbye to your line of defense there (and all it's units: the Soviets won't be able to save many)

If you could hold the Axis off, and rebuild fast enough, then it wouldn't be so much "Soviet Steamroller" as "Weakened Axis and Crippled Soviets." But, of course, the Russian player would be spending most of the early winter months trying to get units back on the board after the summer mauling; not much attacking while you're trying to rebuild your force before the Axis attacks again in spring.
 
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A question


Are you playing EastFront or EuroFront?

The 'SteamRoller' is a mechanic in EuroFront , changing Soviet fire power of certain units.

There is no 'SteamRoller' in EastFront , alone.


I'll assume you are playing EastFront.

Your Soviet woes , I hazard a guess , may be due to poor HQ co-ordination.
Have a look at the Winter HQ comparisons.

German 5= 1x2cv SHQ , 3x2cv HQ , 1x1cv HQ
Soviet 6= 1x3cv SHQ , 1x3cv HQ , 4x2cv HQ


By W42 , the germans cannot keep pace with Soviet maneuvering.

Let me suggest the Russian winter stratergy , is to PRIMARILY , reduce the German SHQ. once Fritz has used OKH twice in a month , you know he is on shakey ground.

How do you do this???
Attack where he is weakest , then after OKH is used to rail in the FireMen , attack somewhere else.
The Soviets have enough Hqs to do this , blitzing is a must , then Stavka rails his own rapid reaction force to the next weak spot.
Also , an activation of Stavka at CV2 can mean all the difference to stalemate or breakthrough.

A Big part of this is FOW too. When Stavka rails 6 units from the south to the north , are they 1cv Inf or a a FULL Shock Front with 2 HQ's? Jerry has no option but to react. You've probably got 1 OKH activation right there.


Turn Advantage
The months of October/November/December can be pivotal for the Reds!
Somewhere the Soviets will get 2 turns in a row , and given a little luck it could be clear weather. A Dry Oct2 followed by a Snow Nov1 can be devastating!!!!
The Germans will never have the same advantage of 2Dry turns in a row.


A final note , Crossing a frozen river

Why push a single unit over the river into the arms of 3 german corps???
Well it's not to win the battle! It's to pin the units in the hexes NEXT TO AND BEHIND the battle hexes of your choice!
Most of the time these stupid CUCUMBERS will die in the attack. But they are mere SLAVES , and can be replaced easily. If they succeed due to poor Jerry rolling - survive - and reinforced in the blitz phase , the germans cant reinforce your target hex.


Looks like I've had a rant

Anyway , If your not convinced , I'm happy to give you a game on VASSAL PBEM devil
whistle



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Patrick B
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but: yes, we're playing Eastfront (thus, the Eastfront forum)

No, I'm not referring to the "Soviet Steamroller" mechanic in EuroF. I'm talking about the sheer amount of troops and tanks that the Soviets were able to keep throwing at the Axis non-stop. See the Winter 43 Scenario title: they're not talking about a EuroF mechanic in that scenario either.

Your HQ discussion puzzled me: I'm clearly talking about a campaign game, and the Axis have all their HQ's built up to full strength, as I'm already mentioned. You say that by W42 that the Axis can't keep up with the Soviet maneuvering... why would they have to: it's a solid wall of 3-4 blocks in the south, with a few behind rivers. Everyone can move 1 space less than normal, but all the germans have to do is pull scratched units out of combat before production, and then send them back in 100% healthy when the replacements get scratched.

As for Turn Advantage: nice, but useless, since the Soviets can never predict with any accuracy WHEN they will get the 2 turns. If they get mud followed by snow, that's nice: except that there's a 50% chance that it's snow/snow. That last turn that was mud? Well, that was the turn you should have acted. Too bad you didn't get go then. Or it was snow, so you blitz... and get mud the next fortnight.

As to the rest; nice tips (attack when weakest, etc), but they don't do anything to contest my main point: there is NO "Soviet steamroller". The Axis player, on being informed by his opponent that all his units are on the board and are fully built up, is not saying "Nuts, gonna have play hard to avoid getting a breakthrough that would destroy me". He's saying "huh, that's nice". Why would he think otherwise? He's just been told that his opponent has pretty much the same forces he does... except that his opponent's HQ's are mostly 2's (and a blitz will take them down to 0's), and half of his infantry and armor are 3 CV max...

If there were enough Soviet blocks, then yes, we would have a Soviet Steamroller, and you could use that to distract your opponent from where the attack is coming from. But the numbers are pretty much equal.

Number if German attacking units (no HQ's): 48
Same for Russians: 58

So, we have 10 more for the Russians: except, that the Germans have 13 armor blocks (all 4's, and I'm including both SS blocks), and the Russians have just 12. So the extra 10 blocks are, like half the Russian army, inf of 3 CV (with a mix of shock troops thrown in).

Not what I would call a 'steamroller' even at full strength.

While your tips are nice, as I've said, they don't touch my main point. I too have been moving troops back and forth, attacking at the 'weakest' point, trying to get across a river (if successful, along comes the SS armor to destroy it on his turn)

As for a game, I'll have to check with my opponent, and get an idea of what his strength was at the Stalingrad line at W42s, so you can see if you can do much better than what I faced. I have a suspicion that you'll try to end-run this way or that in order to achieve some success, which is something that has obviously already occurred to me, since you already know that 8 months of smashing my forces against the Axis wall hasn't done squat to produce a breakthrough. You might even hit upon using the next thing I'm going to try, although 8 months of battle have weakened my forces enough that I now need to heal up to try anything expensive.
 
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Evil Bob
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I haven't read the whole thread yet (at work) but you might want to check this out;

Soviet strategy for campaign games in '43 and later?
 
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Well, I do want to prevent this from turning into a strategy thread, but yeah, I did read that thread thoroughly, and tried the suggestions within last week (my opponent loved it when I blitzed: weakened my HQ's to nothing, and did nothing to him. "Those HQ's are all at 0's now, right?").

I even wrote to Niko, who started the thread; he hasn't played the game in awhile.

As I earlier, there's some strategies that I'm going to try. But the reason I've posted the situation in the game is to make a point about a play aspect of the game for the Soviet side in the campaign game.
 
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Quote:
Well, I do want to prevent this from turning into a strategy thread...


Too late.

There is a lot of great advice on this thread. Please take up BlackMass on his PBEM offer if you think your strategy is unbeatable after playing four campaign games as the Soviets. I'm pretty sure he and/or Joris have trashed my Germans in at some point in the past, but it was a great learning experience.
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Patrick B
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I never said that the the Axis position there is unbeatable.

I was making a point that there is no 'soviet surge', no endless Soviet forces coming over the horizon, dirt-cheap, grinding down the Axis in a war of attrition they can't win; the Soviet forces will have to rely on other techniques to carry the day (such as stealth, FOW, etc). They've got no other choice.
 
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Quote:
I never said that the the Axis position there is unbeatable.

I was making a point that there is no 'soviet surge', no endless Soviet forces coming over the horizon, dirt-cheap, grinding down the Axis in a war of attrition they can't win; the Soviet forces will have to rely on other techniques to carry the day (such as stealth, FOW, etc). They've got no other choice.


Got it, sorry if I misunderstand your point.

Have to disagree though. One side in this game pays half-price for units and the other does not. Soviets units are dirt-cheap, and the Axis can't win a war of attrition in the long run. Following the advice you've gotten in this thread about HQ usage, pinning, weather changes, etc. will let you put that underlying advantage to use.
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yes, the soviets have to play well against a German opponent that is playing well. In this game it is not inevitable that the soviets will 'win' assuming no knockout. This keeps the game interesting after 42 IMO.

Also although obviously there are a limit to the number of blocks, they are still very cheap and constant attacking can feel like they are endless.

One last piece of long winded advise, if you are finding that the Germans just get to an optimal defensive position and then stop, this might be because you are playing too passively as the Soviets during 41-42. It's smart to prevent the knockout but if the Germans get to basically do whatever they want in 41-42 then you will struggle against them in 43 onwards.

Never forget that your units are expendable and you want to make the Germans pay with fascist blood for each step they take on the motherland. This is especially true if going for something important, but also if they are going for good defensive terrain. The Summber 42 which is the last time they can really knock out the Soviets so you really want them to bleed.

Limited counter-attacks will keep the Germans on their toes and prevent them from totally controlling the flow of the war. This is still true during the Winter of 41 when the Germans are really messed around by the Snow. If you can make them not go into any Winter at full strength it will really help you turn not only the tide of the war but whom control it.

Finally, if you arn't having fun and want to try something different just include the streamroller rules from EuroFront. These were built to prevent a sitzkrieg (although it doesnt sound like that is your problem). I would have thought the scenario break VP's would have been enough but I admit i rarely play just EF.
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Patrick B
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Well, these posts are all well and good, but again: they don't touch upon my main point. I could address any of them singly, such as counter-attacking the Axis (which I of course did; the Axis were very good at destroying those attacking blocks; slowed him up enough that he didn't Baku or Stalingrad),but, why bother? ("you have to do X" "I did X" "... well, you have to do X harder"),

As for EuroF additions, which I've done before, I don't think it's needed. I think 10 more Russian blocks is whats needed.

If anyone wants to make the case that there IS indeed a 'Soviet Steamroller', please do. I suggest that Soviet strategy tips be added to the Soviet campaign S43 thread that Niko created, and has been mentioned above.
 
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Quote:
If anyone wants to make the case that there IS indeed a 'Soviet Steamroller', please do. I suggest that Soviet strategy tips be added to the Soviet campaign S43 thread that Niko created, and has been mentioned above.


I guess it depends on what you define "Soviet Steamroller" as.

Many posts on this thread have explained ways that HQ usage, unit positioning and weather changes can be leveraged to create a war of attrition the Germans cannot keep up with. To me, that satisfies the SS definition.

If SS means the ability to create an army so massive, with units so cheap, that you don't have to maximize other Soviet advantages (i.e. winter and more HQs) to crack a good German defense, then no, SS does not exist in this particular game. It didn't exist historically either under this definition (probably a topic for another thread).
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I AGREE WITH THE (Fizban517).

NO STEAMROLLER FOR YOU!

Unless the nazis go chucking it away at Stalingrad , the Caucus or a Kursk somewhere. Then you can have a Steamroller.


Would be interested to see the situation on a vasal file , but sounds like the OOB is gone.
 
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Patrick B
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"HQ usage, unit positioning and weather changes": all of which can be also used by Axis player.

As for what I mean by Steamroller: I think I've explained what I mean by that enough in what I've previously posted.

I don't think there's much else to be said on this topic. Thanks to all who posted.
 
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