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Grossbeeren 20» Forums » Rules

Subject: Turn-track anomalies rss

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Rick Granger
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There is something wrong either with the turn track, the rules or both.

The rules call for a sudden-death die roll during turns 17 through 19, but the turn track ends at turn 14.

In addition, even if the rules meant to call for a sudden-death die roll on turns 13 and 14, a die roll on the last turn of the game makes no sense because the game ends then anyway.

Confused.
 
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Lance McMillan
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Currently on travel; no access to my files. Will reply in a day or two, after I return home.

Lance McMillan
Developer for VPG's "Napoleonic 20" series
 
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David McKenna
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Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?
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Looking at my copy: never noticed that before, but you're right!
 
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Kim Meints
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I'll get in a half offical answer for Lance since he's out of state until he can get back home and look things over(heck,I had to pull out the test map and look at the VPG site at the published map & rules plus look at old test messages in the games folder)

The Map Track is Right.

The rules are wrong since they reflect the original wording of when we started playtesting and there were 4 full days(August 21st thru August 24th)to the game instead of down to 3 ending on the 3rd day when the game was finally published(Aug 21st thru Aug 23rd).


Normally a game ends on a Night game turn and Sudden Death on Daylight turns.Matter of fact after we went to just 3 days sudden Death was still on Turn 14 but the game ended on Game Turn 15(night).
But we felt both sides shouldn't get a night recovery phase to make adjustments to morale and getting out of trouble(or getting into more hot water)so we ended up dropping that Night game turn 15 and ending the game on the very last daylight game turn that had the sudden death die roll.

So Sudden Death just plain ends it right there and then on the last daylight game turn with no adjustments and just a counting of the morale levels as it would in other games in the series on a last sudden death daylight turn.

Kim Meints
Napoleonic20 Designer & Playtester
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Kim Meints
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Lance may have changed the sudden death turns to earlier ones right before the game was published that we weren't informed on or got corrected on the track but thats the last version I knew when we stopped development on the game for the team.
 
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Lance McMillan
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Very curious... My copy of the game has the "Sudden Death" turns on the Turn Track listed as 13 (roll of 2 or less) and 14 (roll of 4 or less), which corresponds accurately to the turns listed in section [4.1] of the Exclusive rules: "At the end of Game Turns 13 and 14, the Allied player rolls a die..." There's no mention of turns 17 through 19 in my version of the rules.

I'm pretty sure that I've got one of the earliest copies of the game (my designer/developer copies always come from the initial print run), so that suggests that somewhere along the line an older version of the rules was erroneously used. I'll contact VPG and try to get this situation resolved.

Regardless, even having turns 13 and 14 as the "Sudden Death" turns doesn't make sense either -- if the final turn of the game is 14, there's no reason for there to be a "Sudden Death" roll on that turn. What I *think* needs to be done is for the "Sudden Death" rolls to occur on turns 12 and 13 (same die roll ranges: 1-2 and 1-4, respectively). That would make more sense from a logic standpoint.

Lance McMillan
Developer for VPG's "Napoleonic 20" series & Designer of "Grossbeeren 20"
 
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Kim Meints
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Lance

We had a Night Game Turn 15 in there so sudden death on turn 14 was OK. Then we ended up dropping it close to the ending of the playtesting and the game then ended on turn 14.
So that was most likely missed when it went to print by not showing the new game turns for SD.
 
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Lance McMillan
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I understand the turn track issue, and I'll have the folks at VPG "fix" that problem. The situation I can't resolve in my mind is the question of how we ended up with two different versions of the rules -- that one has me concerned.
 
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Kim Meints
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That I don't know since I still don't have a published copy yet so I had to look the Exclusive rules up on the Nappy20 page at VPG.Seems those are what the guys here have.
 
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Lance McMillan
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Aardvark wrote:
There is something wrong either with the turn track, the rules or both. The rules call for a sudden-death die roll during turns 17 through 19, but the turn track ends at turn 14. In addition, even if the rules meant to call for a sudden-death die roll on turns 13 and 14, a die roll on the last turn of the game makes no sense because the game ends then anyway.


So, to "officially" wrap this up, the intent here is that there should be "Sudden Death" checks conducted on Turns 12 and 13, with a die roll range for ending the game of 1-2 on Turn 12, and 1-4 on Turn 13. I've contacted VPG and asked them to fix the game master files to correctly reflect this situation.

Do you have any futher questions on this issue, or can I consider it resolved?

Lance McMillan
Developer for VPG's "Napoleonic 20" series
 
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Alan Emrich
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We fixed the map for GROSSBEEREN today, Lance.

Alan Emrich
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Steve Carey
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jackiesavon wrote:
Lance

We had a Night Game Turn 15 in there so sudden death on turn 14 was OK. Then we ended up dropping it close to the ending of the playtesting and the game then ended on turn 14.


If a game ends on a Night Turn, Objectives keep their value (-1 Morale if enemy occupied), an adjustment which occurs before the enemy recovers Morale recovery from rest.

The downside is no Combat at Night of course, plus card draws which can monkey with final morale.

With Sudden Death in play, I do prefer a game to end at Night (for an extra bit of tension).
 
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