Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Trains» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Tourist Train a bit OP? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Marcus Lau
Malaysia
Petaling jaya
Selangor
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I played a game last Saturday with Tourist Train in the mix.

Bought Tourist train on my first turn with 4 coins.

During the rest of the game, I only bought Tourist train, Express Train and Limited Express Train. In the later part of the turns, I started buying Skycrapers when I saw the stations running low.

I won by a large margin (56 points) while the other 3 players were in the high 30's to low 40's range.

My question is whether if Tourist Train (4 cost, gives 1 coin and 1 vp when played) is undercost for what it does?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
Avatar
mb
Our group seems to think it's an auto-buy.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcus Lau
Malaysia
Petaling jaya
Selangor
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
Our group seems to think it's an auto-buy.


My thoughts exactly. But my playgroup now perma-bans tourist train after I wreck havoc with it last Saturday. Would the AEG version offer a fix for that card or are they nerfing other cards instead of this?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don D.
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
Our group seems to think it's an auto-buy.


I concur. Which is not good.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
Avatar
mb
friedricetheman wrote:
garygarison wrote:
Our group seems to think it's an auto-buy.

My thoughts exactly. But my playgroup now perma-bans tourist train after I wreck havoc with it last Saturday. Would the AEG version offer a fix for that card or are they nerfing other cards instead of this?

In another thread, two specific cards called out for tinkering were both 5-cost ones, which rules out the 4-cost TT.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Brokaw
United States
Hillsboro
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
It's not a damn moped!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
friedricetheman wrote:
garygarison wrote:
Our group seems to think it's an auto-buy.

My thoughts exactly. But my playgroup now perma-bans tourist train after I wreck havoc with it last Saturday. Would the AEG version offer a fix for that card or are they nerfing other cards instead of this?

In another thread, two specific cards called out for tinkering were both 5-cost ones, which rules out the 4-cost TT.

I'm pretty sure that card AEG is referring to is "Signal Spot" (at least the Japanese name is Signal Spot). From the "pants" file downloads, it appears that Signal Spot costs 5, provides 1 money, and allows you to draw 2 cards when played.

Imagine getting 5 coin on your opening draw. You clearly buy that card. Not only does it let you spin through your deck, it PROVIDES coin too! Crazy good.

Imagine NOT getting 5 coin on your opening draw when some of your opponents do...

This is most like the card that AEG was referencing that they changed from 5 cost to 6 cost.

I like the Dominion house rule that allows all the players to survey the field of cards and then each player chooses whether they have a 3/4 or 5/2 opening set of 2 buys.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcus Lau
Malaysia
Petaling jaya
Selangor
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
friedricetheman wrote:
garygarison wrote:
Our group seems to think it's an auto-buy.

My thoughts exactly. But my playgroup now perma-bans tourist train after I wreck havoc with it last Saturday. Would the AEG version offer a fix for that card or are they nerfing other cards instead of this?

In another thread, two specific cards called out for tinkering were both 5-cost ones, which rules out the 4-cost TT.


I would think AEG's trigger happy guys would nerf Tourist Train before anything else. But hey, they are publishing it so I guess it's their call.

Personally, I would jack up the cost of Tourist train to 5. Because with it at 4, you would be able to afford it in the first 2 turns no matter what your hand looks like.

Placing the cost at 5 would make it be ONLY possible for purchase if you have a 5/2 split in your first 2 turns.

I don't think Signal Post and Wagon Factory are problematic. Wagon Factory is a direct carbon copy of a card available in the Dominion base set so I don't see a problem there.

Signal Post's cost of 5 coins for 2 card is pretty balanced considering that at 5 coins, you can't buy it on your first two turns unless you have a 5/2 split.

I hope AEG don't change Trains too much. Otherwise it would ended up in the Drains. Case in point : Love Letters.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Ruble
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think it is overpowered if all players know it is powerful. If everyone buys it and uses it, then the playing field is leveled (sorta). Experienced players should know to make buying them up a priority.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tyler McLaughlin
Canada
Medicine Hat
Alberta
flag msg tools
Talk
badge
Words
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This card is fine. The players need fixing, not the game.

Rublegame has the right of it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don D.
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
e.e.goings wrote:
This card is fine. The players need fixing, not the game.

Rublegame has the right of it.


That is BS. "Everyone just buy it" is not at all an appropriate fix to a dominant strategy from a design standpoint. The beauty of a game like trains is the decision space that it creates: having a card that is so powerful that everyone must buy it shrinks the decision space of the game in a manner that may be unacceptable to many gamers both casual and hardcore.

I am not advocating for either side regarding the card, just pointing out that if it is in fact overpowered the above argument is complete horse manure.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tyler McLaughlin
Canada
Medicine Hat
Alberta
flag msg tools
Talk
badge
Words
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not an argument. My point is that the players have to adapt to deal with any card/strategy in the game. Why should tourist train be any different? One strategy is to buy up the TT quickly and evenly, but that requires collaboration and a bit of group think. Not something I would depend upon, but it is possible.

In any case, I've played 4 games with the tourist train present and it hasn't been the dominant strategy, or even close for that matter, a single time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don D.
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
e.e.goings wrote:
Not an argument. My point is that the players have to adapt to deal with any card/strategy in the game. Why should tourist train be any different? One strategy is to buy up the TT quickly and evenly, but that requires collaboration and a bit of group think. Not something I would depend upon, but it is possible.


You are missing the point. A strategy is not having everyone buy them up evenly, the argument being made is that when everyone buys them evenly it is not overpowered and that is what players should do and therefore the card is not problematic. I am saying that is a BS position to take because the requirement that everyone make the decision of X, Y times in a game, to solve an imbalanced card makes the game a forced activity and the players become more like spectators than engaged participants when that happens.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tyler McLaughlin
Canada
Medicine Hat
Alberta
flag msg tools
Talk
badge
Words
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not suggesting that's the only thing players can/should do, quite the opposite. I'm saying that's one of many things players can do.

I agree that the position that counter buying is your only option is BS.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Burbach
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the Tourist Train card could be salvaged if the player has to take a Waste card every time they use it. The idea being that tourists create waste!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jooice ZP
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Frank Burbach wrote:
I think the Tourist Train card could be salvaged if the player has to take a Waste card every time they use it. The idea being that tourists create waste!


I like that idea, have you tried it out? Does it hinder how quickly players buy the TT cards?
I feel like it would definitely slow down the deck, however I still think all players will still try to grab them as soon as possible, it is too much a liability to "miss out" on the TT cards, while another player grabs a bunch of them.

In my experience games with TTs have about 20-30 more points per player, it just seems that for the price of 4, it is an automatic buy from the first turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Burbach
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dond80 wrote:
e.e.goings wrote:
Not an argument. My point is that the players have to adapt to deal with any card/strategy in the game. Why should tourist train be any different? One strategy is to buy up the TT quickly and evenly, but that requires collaboration and a bit of group think. Not something I would depend upon, but it is possible.


You are missing the point. A strategy is not having everyone buy them up evenly, the argument being made is that when everyone buys them evenly it is not overpowered and that is what players should do and therefore the card is not problematic. I am saying that is a BS position to take because the requirement that everyone make the decision of X, Y times in a game, to solve an imbalanced card makes the game a forced activity and the players become more like spectators than engaged participants when that happens.


Interesting. We've only had the tourist train card in one game so far. It was a three player game. One player managed to get seven of them and proceeded to run away with the game despite the combined efforts of the other two players to thwart him. In fact, the player with the train cards almost completely neglected the board, only reaching two cities and one remote location, but still managed to win by more than 20 points.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Francois-Xavier
Scotland
Edinburgh
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We had a different interpretation of the tourist train at home tonight. We thought that if you didn't use the money being generated by the tourist train you had not used the card, so could not score the victory point

Has anyone else thought of this? Or is there something in the rules which shows how this is not logical.

Thanks
Francois
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
H-B-G
United Kingdom
Halesowen
West Midlands
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
macfix wrote:
We had a different interpretation of the tourist train at home tonight. We thought that if you didn't use the money being generated by the tourist train you had not used the card, so could not score the victory point

Has anyone else thought of this? Or is there something in the rules which shows how this is not logical.

Thanks
Francois


When you play a card the first thing that happens is you receive the money which accumulates. If the card has any actions, such as the Tourist Train, then they must be used immediately. So you play the TT, receive the money and then must get 1VP or choose not to. If you use the money first, it would then (according to the rules) be too late to get the VP.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
André Seiler
msg tools
I don't think it is OP, but it is similar to several cards in dominion that destroy the gaming fun.
If a player starts buying it, you have to join. But even then it is luck that makes the difference. If somebody in a 3-players game gets 5 of them, his win is almost sure. We played a game last sunday and immediately stopped it when one of us managed to collect 7 tourist trains. Playing on would have been a waste of time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jooice ZP
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
We avoided using the TT for the longest time.
Just removed the randomizer from the rest.

It later occurred to us that if the card interpretation was slightly changed to only give 1 coin each time it is played(no VP), and add a single victory point at the end of the game, it suddenly makes a lot more sense. Kind of like a better waste free version of the apartment.

We know it is not the real intention, but it made the card a lot more reasonable, and not an instant buy anymore.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fabien Paesani
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I like your ruling Jooice, it makes the card far more balanced.

How can someone says this card is not broken?
What's the point of playing with it when everyone will buy as much of it as he can at the beginning of the game?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.