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Subject: just wondering rss

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is anyone else surprised by how this game is doing (avg rating of 7.54, but only 146 ratings and 398 owners) after tom vasel of the dicetower has raved about this game? i for one thought this game would be doing much better.
 
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Charlie Theel
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It hasn't been out too long. Flash Point is a good comparable as it was kickstarted and is a very good game that is often praised. It's been out for nearly 2 years and has slowly picked up steam. Most popular games don't achieve popularity overnight, especially Coops and games with non-Fantasy/Sci-Fi themes.
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Patrick C.
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I own both Flash Point and Police Precinct. Not a big co-op player.

Flash Point has been played. Police Precinct has yet to be played for two reasons. One, the art (on the board) is not inviting or well done. Looks a bit unprofessional to me. Two, I didn't find the instructions to be well written.

I have less patience than many gamers, I suppose, for badly written instructions. I wasn't an English major in college, but I had the equivalent of a minor in writing and I was a tutor. The multitude of badly written rules in this hobby drive me up the freakin' wall. Police Precinct is certainly not the worst offender. Not even close. But my time is limited these days and I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and decipher this game's rules.

I happen to like the idea of Police Precinct quite a bit, more so than Flash Point. I haven't given up by any means. But I do think the bad art and the so-so instructions have hurt this game's popularity.
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Common Man Games
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travvller wrote:

The multitude of badly written rules in this hobby drive me up the freakin' wall. Police Precinct is certainly not the worst offender. Not even close. But my time is limited these days and I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and decipher this game's rules.


Hi Patrick!

Thanks for your thoughts!

We here at CMG do not want to be known as...

"That game company that does great games, but bad rule-books."

Not what we want to be remembered for.

We are doing our best to help turn around the notion that some people have right now that this might be the case.

Not sure if you have seen this yet, but...

Here is an example of something we have done to try to help in this area...

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/89595/set-up-guide

We feel like moving forward we want to be known for GREAT rule-books.

I want people like you to rave about them.

This is a goal for CMG, and I feel confident that we will do well with it.

Thanks again!



Karl

Karl Fenner, Director
Common Man Games
Denver, CO USA
karl@commonman.com
www.commonman.com
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Clinton Coddington
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Police Precinct is a fantastic game, one that has basically replaced Flashpoint as the go to game in my group. I know the rule book can be a bit frustrating but Common Man has been pretty active here on the Geek looking for help with not only improving the rule book but fine tuning the game with the help of the fans. From what i understand a revised edition of the rule book is on it's way.
The game is a ton of fun and one I really recommend people give a shot to especially with the revised rulebook on the way.
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Holger Doessing
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A big +1 on the art issue.
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Kevin B. Smith
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holgerd wrote:
A big +1 on the art issue.

I remember similar complaints about the Flash Point art, when it first came out.

EDIT: Oh, and PP is a much more daunting game to get to the table than FP. FP has its family rules where you can get started quite quickly and easily. PP with its huge board and many components just feels...bigger.
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Jeff Davis
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charlest wrote:
It hasn't been out too long. Flash Point is a good comparable as it was kickstarted and is a very good game that is often praised. It's been out for nearly 2 years and has slowly picked up steam. Most popular games don't achieve popularity overnight, especially Coops and games with non-Fantasy/Sci-Fi themes.


Not only that, but I notice that Flash Point was made available to the general mainstream public through Target, Barnes and Noble, and others. Making the game available through these channels, I am sure, really helped it along faster.

- SK
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Jeff Davis
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travvller wrote:
...I do think the bad art and the so-so instructions have hurt this game's popularity.


If there is one thing that is prevalent in these PP forums is that the “negatives” of this game are FAR outweighed by its positives.

1. Yes, the instructions are a bit cluttered, grammatically in error, and are not formatted very well at all. (I brought this up quite frankly in my review of this game).

2. Yes, the Artwork of the board is rather “generic” and non colorful. However, some people LIKE the artwork – gives the board a very realistic, dirty – weathered look – like a real downtown city.)

I am of the group that will tolerate problems such as the above as long as the game is worth it. (As opposed to a really crappy game that has great artwork, well written instructions, etc).

PP is, IMO, a superbly designed, tested, and SUPPORTED game. I can tell a GREAT deal of thought went into the design and testing of this game. It would seem though, that the amount of attention to detail in the rulebook formatting and grammar were less intensive! However, the actual content of the rulebook is good -

From my review:
**********************************************************
… this is the only game I have ever played where I did not read the Rulebook upfront and look at videos and read Forums first, before attempting to play. The wife and I just jumped into it and got through the first game in a few hours. To me, this is a testament to actually how well written to the rules were for us (notwithstanding the long paragraphs, less than stellar formatting, and word errors here and there).
**************************************************

So, I feel this game’s playability and fun-factor FAR outweigh the problems with the Board Art and Rulebook.

Finally, the online support of Common Man Games (Karl, et al), is exemplary. Their presence here in BGG (as far as I can tell) is second to none. I am sure the next printing of this game will have those “negatives” corrected. Not that it will make ANY difference to the playability and fun of the game.

- SK

Edit: added signature line
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Eric
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Popularity doesn't seem to be an issue here. Nearly 400 users on BGG own it. Great game play trumps mediocre artwork every time I would say. The artwork here fits the game anyways. Once you play the game,you realize how fun and intense it is. Our group is ready for more event /crisis cards. We have played several games already. Our only complaint is that we want more!

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Loose Cannon
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Just to jump in on this.
THE Components......

When I opened the box. I was blown away by the size of the board.
The Evidence Mat, Feels like Vinyl.
And the characters are thicker cardboard than any game out there.

JoeM
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peakhope wrote:
holgerd wrote:
A big +1 on the art issue.

I remember similar complaints about the Flash Point art, when it first came out.


It's the same artist (as you're probably aware).

The appreciation of various art styles is clearly an extremely subjective thing, but my own personal opinion is that George Patsouras is one of the least interesting game artists around. His very clinical, computer-generated, Barbie-doll-clean, totally lifeless, unexciting style really turns me off, to the point where I haven't purchased Police Precinct despite the fact that I think I would really enjoy the game play. (Yes, that is an extremely shallow way of thinking, but I am someone for whom the aesthetics of a game are very important, as can be seen by the fact that I spend much of my free time customizing my games' components).

This is no more than one gamer's opinion on a specific art style, and is in no way a comment on George as a person (never met the guy), or Common Man Games as a game company (I appreciate their very active presence here on BGG).
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Clinton Coddington
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squash wrote:
peakhope wrote:
holgerd wrote:
A big +1 on the art issue.

I remember similar complaints about the Flash Point art, when it first came out.


It's the same artist (as you're probably aware).

The appreciation of various art styles is clearly an extremely subjective thing, but my own personal opinion is that George Patsouras is one of the least interesting game artists around. His very clinical, computer-generated, Barbie-doll-clean, totally lifeless, unexciting style really turns me off, to the point where I haven't purchased Police Precinct despite the fact that I think I would really enjoy the game play. (Yes, that is an extremely shallow way of thinking, but I am someone for whom the aesthetics of a game are very important, as can be seen by the fact that I spend much of my free time customizing my games' components).

This is no more than one gamer's opinion on a specific art style, and is in no way a comment on George as a person (never met the guy), or Common Man Games as a game company (I appreciate their very active presence here on BGG).



Well put, it's very true that appreciation of art is a very subjective thing. Some things turn me off from games as well that other people think are odd of me. I won't play Legendary because I dislike Marvel that much. So as much as I'd all love you to try out Police Precinct, I do understand where you are coming from and thank you for presenting it in a well thought out manner and not just flaming the thread.
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Common Man Games
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squash wrote:
peakhope wrote:
holgerd wrote:
A big +1 on the art issue.

I remember similar complaints about the Flash Point art, when it first came out.


It's the same artist (as you're probably aware).

The appreciation of various art styles is clearly an extremely subjective thing, but my own personal opinion is that George Patsouras is one of the least interesting game artists around. His very clinical, computer-generated, Barbie-doll-clean, totally lifeless, unexciting style really turns me off, to the point where I haven't purchased Police Precinct despite the fact that I think I would really enjoy the game play. (Yes, that is an extremely shallow way of thinking, but I am someone for whom the aesthetics of a game are very important, as can be seen by the fact that I spend much of my free time customizing my games' components).

This is no more than one gamer's opinion on a specific art style, and is in no way a comment on George as a person (never met the guy), or Common Man Games as a game company (I appreciate their very active presence here on BGG).


Hey Josh!

I too like the way you depict your thoughts.

You have strong opinions, but you voice them in a respectful way.

For this...

Thanks!

I have always been a big advocate of the idea that art is something that each person needs to make up their own mind about.

I personally am a huge George Patsouras fan, and I know that when he got involved in making the art (during the Kickstarter campaign) the pledges when up dramatically. I can honestly say that...

"Like his art or not, were it not for George Patsouras Police Precicnt would not exsist."

Until his art started coming out, it was obvious that we would NOT have reached our goal on KS. Had this happened, and we would not have published the game.

This is not because we didn't believe in the game, but simply because...

We are a big believer in using Kickstarter as a true vetting instrument, and for this reason, we do not intend to ever publish a game that can't reach it's goal. We feel like if this happens, it is the market-place saying... "We don't want this game".

I think it is our job as a publisher to listen to the marketplace.

Knowing how close we came to this happening with Police Precinct, makes me very thankful that it didn't play out that way.

As much as we love George's art, I doubt if we will use him for all of our games down the road, so with this in mind...

I hope you end-up owning some of our games at some point.

Also, hope that they turn-out-to-be games you wouldn't ever want to part with (and love the appearance of).

Time will tell on that.

(meaning, can CMG come up with a game that is a good match for Josh in all regards?)

By the way, on that topic...

What artists do you like?

Maybe we need forge a relationship with one them.

We are looking at publishing some new games in the not too distant future, and will certainly need an artist involved.

I say...

Why not have a "Josh-Approved" one?

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Thanks so much for your reply! Despite never having played K2 or Police Precinct (a situation that I would love to rectify in both cases sooner rather than later!) I am a Common Man Games fan, solely due to your consistent, personal, polite, and enthusiastic responses to everything posted in your game forums. As a result, I tend to follow those forums more than I would for most games that I've never played!

But anyhow, I'll start by saying that designing a game that is "a good match for Josh in all regards" is probably a good recipe for bankruptcy! My financial and time management circumstances dictate that I keep a relatively small game collection, since with a monthly game purchasing budget of little more than $0, every time I wish to acquire a new game I have to sell 1 or 2 of the games that are currently on my game shelves. This means that I very ruthlessly cull even games that I love if I think that they won't end up being played any time in the foreseeable future. (I'm not somebody who understands the hobbyist mentality of rampant game acquisition with the knowledge that many of those games will only sit unplayed on the shelf!)

So that explains my persnickety nature, but I will admit that I do hope to purchase Police Precinct at some point in the future. If I'm being 100% honest with you, the other reason I'm holding off for now (besides the dislike for the artwork and the knowledge that I'll probably end up putting many hours into a graphic redesign) is that I'm hoping a 2nd edition (with the printing errors corrected and the rulebook improved) might eventually be released alongside an expansion for the game. I'm very happy that not everyone is doing this (else the game would never be enough of a success to even hit a second printing), but I do hope to eventually be sending some of my very limited funds in the direction of Common Man Games!


Common Man Games wrote:
By the way, on that topic...

What artists do you like?


This is a great question, and one that it is only fair I provide a thoughtful answer to given my previous comments in this thread. Thus, I'd like to put some proper thought into it before I reply so that I can give you an educated response.



Meanwhile, I am glad that Police Precinct was a success on Kickstarter, I hope that it continues to do very well for you, and I wish you and Common Man Games much success moving forward!

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Common Man Games
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Well spoken my friend!

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

So far as the artist question...

I think that a discussion about this could take place on the CMG page.

I will post something in a minute.

When I do I will return to this thread and add the link right here in this post.

-------------------

OK...

I'm back now.

Here's the link...

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12035052#12035052

We would love to hear from anyone who has a strong opinion about board-game artists.

Who do you like?

Thanks!

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Arjen Schouten
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KillerTaco wrote:
Police Precinct is a fantastic game, one that has basically replaced Flashpoint as the go to game in my group.


This is exactly the reason why I didn't buy Police Precinct (yet). I bought Flash Point early this year, and shortly after that I heard about Police Precinct. I love Flash Point, and seeing the small group (usually just my wife and me) I play with I don't want any competition for tabletime at the moment when it comes to coop games.
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Jeff Davis
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squash wrote:


...(Yes, that is an extremely shallow way of thinking, but I am someone for whom the aesthetics of a game are very important, as can be seen by the fact that I spend much of my free time customizing my games' components).



That is not shallow at all! You have every right to determine what is important to YOU. I sincerely repsect your opinion on this.

- SK
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Eric Baker
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Vargen666 wrote:
This is exactly the reason why I didn't buy Police Precinct (yet). I bought Flash Point early this year, and shortly after that I heard about Police Precinct. I love Flash Point, and seeing the small group (usually just my wife and me) I play with I don't want any competition for tabletime at the moment when it comes to coop games.


I admire a man who games with his wife, but as a married man, you know that variety is the spice of life.



If you ever consider starting a co-op rotation, Police Precinct is a perfect compliment to Flash Point.

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