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Subject: House rule: No voting on the fifth team proposal? rss

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Dorkmaster Flek
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Is there any reason not to have this? The rules say the bad guys win if the fifth team proposal in the same round fails. There are always more good guys than bad guys, and even if you're sure the mission is going to fail, it's better than outright losing right there. There is no reason at all I can think of that the good guys wouldn't vote for the fifth team proposal. If you're a bad guy, you still don't want to vote against it because that totally outs you, if this isn't the final round.

So as far as I can see, everybody should always vote to approve the fifth team. If that's the case, why bother having a vote at all? I think it would be better to prevent beginning players from even having the option of making a strategic blunder like this.
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brian
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DorkmasterFlek wrote:
Is there any reason not to have this? The rules say the bad guys win if the fifth team proposal in the same round fails. There are always more good guys than bad guys, and even if you're sure the mission is going to fail, it's better than outright losing right there. There is no reason at all I can think of that the good guys wouldn't vote for the fifth team proposal. If you're a bad guy, you still don't want to vote against it because that totally outs you, if this isn't the final round.

So as far as I can see, everybody should always vote to approve the fifth team. If that's the case, why bother having a vote at all? I think it would be better to prevent beginning players from even having the option of making a strategic blunder like this.

It's a mechanism to keep the game from dragging on. We have never lost by this but have come close. One time it did come down to we either lose because of the vote, or we allow this team to pass and we lose because they fail it.

However, when we have gotten into this trickbag it is because of seating order. The current proposal is messed up. The second one is bad and so will the next one since two traitors are next to each other. Then a good guy is next but he either hasn't figured it out or another good guy doesn't trust him. So the vote fails. Now it is back to another bad guy and another potential vote.

Regardless it keeps the good guys honest and puts pressure on them not to just auto-fail until it gets back to a certain player.
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Dorkmaster Flek
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Oh yes, I understand the reason for capping the number of team votes per round. I'm simply saying the fifth proposal should be automatically approved with no voting, because it doesn't make sense for anybody to reject it as far as I can tell.
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mateenyweeny
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Many people do house rule it that way.
It will only catch you once and it's a cheap "get".
I agree that it might as well say that the 5th proposal is passed automatically without a vote.
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Jesse Chapman
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DorkmasterFlek wrote:
Is there any reason not to have this? The rules say the bad guys win if the fifth team proposal in the same round fails. There are always more good guys than bad guys, and even if you're sure the mission is going to fail, it's better than outright losing right there. There is no reason at all I can think of that the good guys wouldn't vote for the fifth team proposal. If you're a bad guy, you still don't want to vote against it because that totally outs you, if this isn't the final round.


There is an opportunity for the spies to actually trick people into voting no on that 5th mission, therefore securing them a win. Making this a house rule I think eliminates a lot of the tension and excitement of the vote.
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DorkmasterFlek wrote:
Is there any reason not to have this? The rules say the bad guys win if the fifth team proposal in the same round fails. There are always more good guys than bad guys, and even if you're sure the mission is going to fail, it's better than outright losing right there. There is no reason at all I can think of that the good guys wouldn't vote for the fifth team proposal. If you're a bad guy, you still don't want to vote against it because that totally outs you, if this isn't the final round.

So as far as I can see, everybody should always vote to approve the fifth team. If that's the case, why bother having a vote at all? I think it would be better to prevent beginning players from even having the option of making a strategic blunder like this.

If it is the last mission where every single good person needs to be on the mission, and I am a good person, and I am not on the mission:

I always vote no.

Bad guys are going to win anyway, why not end it faster?
 
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As a general rule, yes, it's an unnecessary vote, BUT keep in mind that the bad guys can still make the 5th proposal fail by playing the veto card! Effectively winning the game without even going on the mission, just denying proposals cool

Managed to win that way once.
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Clyde W
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It's effectively a hold over from Vanilla Resistance which had the No Confidence plot card. If you NC a fifth proposal, spies win. That's a great tool for spies and effectively pushes forward the game to always be sent on the fourth proposal instead.

But yeah for Avalon you can simply send the fifth proposal. There is NO reason to vote.
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Simon Kamber
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waitreally wrote:
DorkmasterFlek wrote:
Is there any reason not to have this? The rules say the bad guys win if the fifth team proposal in the same round fails. There are always more good guys than bad guys, and even if you're sure the mission is going to fail, it's better than outright losing right there. There is no reason at all I can think of that the good guys wouldn't vote for the fifth team proposal. If you're a bad guy, you still don't want to vote against it because that totally outs you, if this isn't the final round.


There is an opportunity for the spies to actually trick people into voting no on that 5th mission, therefore securing them a win. Making this a house rule I think eliminates a lot of the tension and excitement of the vote.


I think the game will survive just fine without the tension of exploiting beginners who don't understand the rules.
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Robert Stewart
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clydeiii wrote:
It's effectively a hold over from Vanilla Resistance which had the No Confidence plot card. If you NC a fifth proposal, spies win. That's a great tool for spies and effectively pushes forward the game to always be sent on the fourth proposal instead.

But yeah for Avalon you can simply send the fifth proposal. There is NO reason to vote.


Sometimes it can be instructive to see who does end up rejecting the fifth proposal...

People do do some dumb things sometimes...
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
It's effectively a hold over from Vanilla Resistance which had the No Confidence. If you NC a fifth proposal, spies win. That's a great tool for spies and effectively pushes forward the game to always be sent on the fourth proposal instead.

But yeah for Avalon you can simply send the fifth proposal. There is NO reason to vote.


Sometimes it can be instructive to see who does end up rejecting the fifth proposal...

People do do some dumb things sometimes...


No one rejects the fifth team proposal unless someone has failed to explain the rules properly to them (or the game is already over)
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Dulkal wrote:

No one rejects the fifth team proposal unless someone has failed to explain the rules properly to them (or the game is already over)


Or ... you've already been completely outed in some previous sacrifice arrrh
 
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Dorkmaster Flek
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Okay, I wasn't aware that there were plot cards that could affect that. If there is some way to affect the vote, it makes sense. But I don't think there's anything like that in Avalon, so it doesn't make sense there as far as I can tell. I'll just make sure to really explain that to my group of friends if we get to the fifth vote.
 
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mateenyweeny
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I guess that since technically the plot cards are compatible with Avalon, they had to keep the rule there.
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Lee Fisher
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slinkydink wrote:
I guess that since technically the plot cards are compatible with Avalon, they had to keep the rule there.


Also for new/casual players, it would be confusing to word and implement such an exception.
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Dulkal wrote:
No one rejects the fifth team proposal unless someone has failed to explain the rules properly to them (or the game is already over)


If you are Oberon (one of the specials, unknown to evil), you have every reason to vote against the fifth selection in the last quest.
 
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a1bert wrote:
Dulkal wrote:
No one rejects the fifth team proposal unless someone has failed to explain the rules properly to them (or the game is already over)


If you are Oberon (one of the specials, unknown to evil), you have every reason to vote against the fifth selection in the last quest.

Why?
 
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mateenyweeny
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Well yeah on Mission 5 if the rebels are proposing a clean 5th attempt, as a spy, you can vote down the mission all you want but it would take a silly on-mission rebel to take the mission down.
 
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Bill Grant
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a1bert wrote:
Dulkal wrote:
No one rejects the fifth team proposal unless someone has failed to explain the rules properly to them (or the game is already over)


If you are Oberon (one of the specials, unknown to evil), you have every reason to vote against the fifth selection in the last quest.

For me this depends on if you believe Oberon is pro-rebel or pro-spy.

If you think he is pro-rebel then having the ability to out at the end (so he isn't in the Merlin pool) would balance it a bit.

If you think he is pro-spy then it seems fair that one downside is he can't be ruled out completely at game-end.

I lean towards slightly pro-spy so I would still favor house-ruling the hammer mission always be sent without a vote.
 
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Bill Grant
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slinkydink wrote:
Well yeah on Mission 5 if the rebels are proposing a clean 5th attempt, as a spy, you can vote down the mission all you want but it would take a silly on-mission rebel to take the mission down.

I think the point is to pull Oberon out of the Merlin candidates.
 
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Billgrant wrote:
a1bert wrote:
Dulkal wrote:
No one rejects the fifth team proposal unless someone has failed to explain the rules properly to them (or the game is already over)


If you are Oberon (one of the specials, unknown to evil), you have every reason to vote against the fifth selection in the last quest.

For me this depends on if you believe Oberon is pro-rebel or pro-spy.

If you think he is pro-rebel then having the ability to out at the end (so he isn't in the Merlin pool) would balance it a bit.

If you think he is pro-spy then it seems fair that one downside is he can't be ruled out completely at game-end.

I lean towards slightly pro-spy so I would still favor house-ruling the hammer mission always be sent without a vote.

How is Oberon pro-spy?....

I've only played with him once (I was Oberon) but it definitely didn't seem pro-spy in that game.
 
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Bill Grant
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Vanderscamp wrote:
Billgrant wrote:
a1bert wrote:
Dulkal wrote:
No one rejects the fifth team proposal unless someone has failed to explain the rules properly to them (or the game is already over)


If you are Oberon (one of the specials, unknown to evil), you have every reason to vote against the fifth selection in the last quest.

For me this depends on if you believe Oberon is pro-rebel or pro-spy.

If you think he is pro-rebel then having the ability to out at the end (so he isn't in the Merlin pool) would balance it a bit.

If you think he is pro-spy then it seems fair that one downside is he can't be ruled out completely at game-end.

I lean towards slightly pro-spy so I would still favor house-ruling the hammer mission always be sent without a vote.

How is Oberon pro-spy?....

I've only played with him once (I was Oberon) but it definitely didn't seem pro-spy in that game.

If it is pro-spy it is barely pro-spy. Ask Clyde about this.

The idea is that generally any extra information is pro-rebel and any removal of information is pro-spy. With Oberon the benefit is fellow spies can't even hint at Oberon being a spy, but of course the flip side is it is much harder to coordinate.
 
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Dulkal wrote:
a1bert wrote:

If you are Oberon (one of the specials, unknown to evil), you have every reason to vote against the fifth selection in the last quest.

Why?


As said:

Oberon outs himself as a bad guy so he would not be selected to be assassinated by mistake (perhaps by knowing too well the other bad guys).

If he and other bad guys would not vote against the team, then Merlin could vote against the team to sow uncertainty of who's Oberon. Knowing this, all spies would want to vote against the team, so they could win by rejecting the team. Mindf*uck.

Automatic pass would take all these (potential) spectacular failures and misdirections out of the game.

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a1bert wrote:
Dulkal wrote:
a1bert wrote:

If you are Oberon (one of the specials, unknown to evil), you have every reason to vote against the fifth selection in the last quest.

Why?


As said:

Oberon outs himself as a bad guy so he would not be selected to be assassinated by mistake (perhaps by knowing too well the other bad guys).

If he and other bad guys would not vote against the team, then Merlin could vote against the team to sow uncertainty of who's Oberon. Knowing this, all spies would want to vote against the team, so they could win by rejecting the team. Mindf*uck.

Automatic pass would take all these (potential) spectacular failures and misdirections out of the game.



Ah. That is pretty clever.
 
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Dorkmaster Flek
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Woah. Okay, I didn't consider the Oberon mindf*cks. That does make sense, but only if you're playing with Oberon then. I guess I'll just have to explain the strategy to people.
 
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