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Subject: Now that the Kickstarter is over, what am I expecting from this game? rss

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John Di Ponio
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What an exciting run for this kickstarter project! It was funded pretty quick but in the end, I was a bit dissapointed in the final numbers. I thought the pledge amounts would be higher but I can understand the price point deterring people from jumping on board as well as the subject matter. Maybe if it was Napoleonic ships with zombies it might have gone through the roof! laugh

I jumped in with both feet and went right to the Commodore level. I had a method to my madness. I have a son who will love this game so one copy will be put away for Christmas 2013 (yes, I officially started my Christmas shopping!). The miniatures look great and since I already play and love Wings of Glory, I have no problem backing a company that I am familliar with.

The video tutorials have been nice to view and the gameplay should be pretty straight forward. I expect a game like WIngs of Glory that is easy to get up and running but will have the ability to add optional rules to spice things up. Support for the game should be continuous and I have emailed Aerodrome Accessories (http://www.aerodromeaccessories.com/) and they plan to support the game with add-ons. I use them for my Wings of Glory so I have no doubt that they will come up with some pretty cool stuff for the Sails Of Glory system.

All in all, I am very happy with my backing of the kickstarter and I have no 'second thoughts'. Hopefully, the delivery will meet the August target and my fleet can hit the table!!!!
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Team Ski
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Napoleonic ships of the line always fascinated me, but it wasn't until I visited the HMS Victory in the late 1990's that it really took off. SoG is nearly the perfect storm: great mini's with an established gameplay pedigree. No doubt that the game is expensive, and it only reaches a niche crowd for the most part. You are correct: if there was a zombie in there somewhere, those apocalypse people would be all over it. I am thrilled that ARES didn't sell out like some other KS projects.

Now, the only issue I have with the game are the chits. Drawing chits from 5 different bags sounds cumbersome, and it was to a point in WoW. Now, I love the detail level that the game is capable of addressing. However, I really think the tokens create a fiddliness with the game. I am not a big fan of the cards, but I understand the need for them. I played a friend's copy of X-Wing and I really like how movement was done via the wheel and movement templates. It streamlined and sped up the game quite a bit.

I am hoping to create a damage chart when I get the token sheet using dice instead of the tokens. See, I want to use a larger number of ships than just a couple frigates floating around the board. I already created a test logsheet that has 8 ships per page. You would enter damage with a pencil. So, If I can get dice to get close to what the tokens do, then I think I can speed up the game a bit, at least for doing an SoL scenario.

-Ski
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Charlie Theel
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JohnnyD wrote:

I have a son who will love this game so one copy will be put away for Christmas 2012 (yes, I officially started my Christmas shopping!).


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John Di Ponio
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charlest wrote:
JohnnyD wrote:

I have a son who will love this game so one copy will be put away for Christmas 2012 (yes, I officially started my Christmas shopping!).




OOPS...thanks Charles. I probably would have needed the flux capacitor!
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J. Emmett
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JohnnyD wrote:
What an exciting run for this kickstarter project! It was funded pretty quick but in the end, I was a bit dissapointed in the final numbers. I thought the pledge amounts would be higher but I can understand the price point deterring people from jumping on board as well as the subject matter.

Very true. I know absolutely nothing about naval warfare, Napoleonic or otherwise, but I do know that a) like the OP, I love Wings of War/Glory and the quality of Ares' bits; and b) Master and Commander is a sweet movie. That was enough for me to get the starter set, which is still a chunk of change with shipping to Canada; plus I added a game mat since the WoG mat I have, and the KS price for the SoG mat, made that a no-brainer.

I have to admit though, while I'm sick to death of zombies, I can't wait for the merchant and pirate ships!

In the meantime, I actually have to learn a little something about this period before August. whistle Trawling the SoG Anchorage forums suggests The Trafalgar Companion will be my next library checkout.
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Team Ski
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Gravey wrote:

In the meantime, I actually have to learn a little something about this period before August. whistle Trawling the SoG Anchorage forums suggests The Trafalgar Companion will be my next library checkout.


That is a really good book! I also have Gettysburg and Waterloo. No citations, but the books are absolutely stunning. Napoleonic naval history is awesome once you start reading about it.

-Ski
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Kevin Duke
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Quote:
So, If I can get dice to get close to what the tokens do, then I think I can speed up the game a bit, at least for doing an SoL scenario.


Just as a wild idea, you might try actually playing the game they designed before fixing it.

You cannot duplicate their hit result potential with dice unless you use percentile dice and a sequence like the old Panzer game did. "01-05= X, 06-11= Y, 12-19= Z). It's actually going to be faster to pull chits than it will be to do multiple die rolls and cross referencing and then recording.

The chits are not what will slow the game down for playing mass battles-- it's picking the ship movements. The size of the ships and mechanics mean that this is not really the machine for doing Trafalgar, or even the Battle of the Nile...

It's your money and, of course, you can do what you want with it, but it sounds like you're setting yourself up for disappointment because it isn't the game you want it to be. I hope you will give it a chance to be the game it actually is.
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Nate Parkes
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I hope there's a point system for squad building, but I know this is probably iffy.

I'm looking forward to the following matchups:

* Frigate v. Frigate (Basic Rules) - Introductory game to get my fiance-soon-to-be-wife on board

* Ship of the Line v. two Frigates (Standard Rules) - Hopefully this is a fair match-up, and I figure giving my wife one ship to control will make it easier for her to manage the complexity of the standard rules, while I'll have to manage two ships simultaneously

* Ship of the Line & Frigate v. Ship of the Line & Frigate (Standard Rules)- I suspect this will be the standard match-up for non-scenario play. The mirror-match ensures balances, but the variety ensures strategic options.

* Three Ships of the Line v. Three Ships of the Line (Basic Rules) - I'd like to roll this out as a 6-player game at Gencon. I'll have 6 combat rulers and attitude indicators, to hopefully that will keep things moving fast.

Very excited.
 
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Team Ski
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kduke wrote:

It's your money and, of course, you can do what you want with it, but it sounds like you're setting yourself up for disappointment because it isn't the game you want it to be. I hope you will give it a chance to be the game it actually is.


I have a ton of WoW games behind me, so I have a pretty good clue how SoG will play. I would like to adapt it for larger games. In the current format, that is just not possible considering the amount of book keeping required. Having fleet movement rules would help out a lot. So, if you have ships in line, you could use one set of cards for that formation. Now, the trick is if some ships in a formation hit red before the others, then you have to look into controlling those ships separately or having the entire formation go red......

The bagging of the chits doesn't help (If I recall, WoW only had three damage chit sets....I may be wrong). I think you can get closer to the chits than what you think. Use separate dice for regular and special damage. Again, I would have to sort through the tiles and check for what the odds are. I wouldn't think that de-linking the standard damage from special damage would break the game.

I agree with you that the game as designed is good. However, for those of us who are wanting the spectacle of ships in formation, the game should be able to cater to that, and sell more ships as a result.

-Ski

 
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Mayor Jim
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kduke wrote:
Quote:
So, If I can get dice to get close to what the tokens do, then I think I can speed up the game a bit, at least for doing an SoL scenario.


Just as a wild idea, you might try actually playing the game they designed before fixing


Gettin' pretty wild there K. No offense to TeamSki, I'm noticing a bunch of folks "modding" games before they've even played them let alone giving them a decent run first. Heck, this one doesn't even have the rules published yet, just demos...but hey, it's your game, go for it...Just don't use the black highlighter for the important parts shake
 
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Team Ski
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MayorJim wrote:

Gettin' pretty wild there K. No offense to TeamSki, I'm noticing a bunch of folks "modding" games before they've even played them let alone giving them a decent run first. Heck, this one doesn't even have the rules published yet, just demos...but hey, it's your game, go for it...Just don't use the black highlighter for the important parts shake


As I mentioned, the game is fine for having a couple ships on the table. It doesn't work for bigger games, period. What I am looking into is to adapt the game to allow for bigger battles that won't take 6 hours to get through.

-Ski
 
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Andrea Angiolino
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Well you know Wings of War/Glory well, so up to you to judge.
Comparing to X-Wing, anyway, I'd say that if you find that quick you should have no problems at all with my games. I read here on BGG of a X-Wing session with just 42 miniatures that lasted more than six hours. The largest WoW game ever saw 92 planes on the same table, and it lasted only 2 hours and a half. The previous record was held by a game in a square of Pisa, with 81 miniatures: I was there and it took even less, if I remember well just a couple of hours. I do not think that a basic SGN should be slower, even if of course advanced rules will slow it down.
 
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Team Ski
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angiolillo wrote:
The largest WoW game ever saw 92 planes on the same table, and it lasted only 2 hours and a half. The previous record was held by a game in a square of Pisa, with 81 miniatures: I was there and it took even less, if I remember well just a couple of hours. I do not think that a basic SGN should be slower, even if of course advanced rules will slow it down.


Andrea,

You aren't playing fair! You had 92 players play that game! Add the fact that there are far more things going on in SoG with damage, actions, sails, ammo, etc, and you are now into apples and oranges territory.

I am talking about two player games with 20+ ships on the table. I don't see the value in producing SoL's just to have two of them going at it. HMS Victory NEVER fought a battle alone with just a couple ships around. It always anchored a formation of at least 15 ships. Scrimmaging doesn't represent the true scope of the era. Napoleonic naval battles were not dogfights but slugfests with the winner having the most mass at the right point in the battle.

I love the game system, but I want it to simulate larger battles. I think you can have cake and eat it too.

-Ski
 
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Roberto Di Meglio
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Sky, a mass battle, with any kind of game, necessarily requires more abstract rules than a tactical game.
And Sails of Glory is definitely tactical, managing crew, special damage on each ship, and so on.

The largest naval battles of the age, which we may consider the "Mass battles", the naval equivalent of Waterloo, have about 40 ships on each side. Is it possible to achieve this with Sails of Glory?

If you are an expert player of the game, and decide to play with the basic rules (which I think is a more than reasonable level of detail for a mass battle) you can easily control 6-8 ships per player. You just need to put down 1 card for every ship, and keep track of who's firing and who's reloading with tokens or smoke clouds. The ship logs are pretty compact without the ship mat, and 5 logs take up about as much space as a Letter/A4 sheet.
With 4-5 players on each side, you can deal with a game of this size in a few hours.
And a smaller group of people (say 2-3 on each side) could probably complete a battle of this size in a whole day of fighting (the real thing also was not finished in a matter of minutes, did not it?).

And Abukir is only half this size, so would be very doable in a club or a convention event (even at the Advanced level, with may be 5-6 people on each side).

Customizing the rules would also help - for example, as suggested before, commanding a group of ships with the same maneuver without repeating it, until the line is broken.

Finally, we are also considering developing a couple of apps to support the game - an attitude indicator app, and an app to track the damage on ship logs. They would further speed-up gameplay for the more technologically oriented of our players.
 
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Andrea Angiolino
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Well, I was just comparing the two game sistem. The 42 ships X-Wing session was not played by 2 people, either. But it is the structure of the turn and of the rules that makes for a longer game. Just think about the fact that moves are executed in succession by initiative, and fire too. Not all at the same time. 92 people with one X-Wing starship each will take a lot of hours to complete the game, far more than the 6 hours (7 1/2 if you include setting) that were needed for the 42 starships game. And immensely more than the 2 1/2 hours needed for the 92 planes WoW game.
Let's see with SGN.
 
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David J Schaffner
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Teamski wrote:
Napoleonic naval battles were not dogfights but slugfests with the winner having the most mass at the right point in the battle.

I love the game system, but I want it to simulate larger battles. I think you can have cake and eat it too.

-Ski

My local group will be playing fleet actions using the basic SoG rules, but we'll be doing these with 4-6-8 players involved. At the scale of these fleet actions, we'll want to share the game sessions with more than a couple of players, and it'll just work quicker and we'll get more exposure for the game by organizing group plays.

I anticipate like most players we'll all get "our feet wet" playing the canned scenarios first, and those which only involve a few ships on a side while we learn the rules. After that we'll think about larger fleet actions and organizing group battles.

Actually, I'm looking forward to the smaller ship actions too, or engagements like blockade running, anti-pirate missions, coastal patrols, transport escorts, etc.. The system begs for getting the smaller-classed vessels released to enable these. There's no doubt that we'll be playing many of the historical scenarios that we'll have the ship models and players to attempt, but I could see organizing "pirate campaigns" for example, as a way to generate on-going scenarios. These mini-campaigns could be historically inspired, but once started, would be generating non-historical battles. Sometimes playing generated matchups turns out to be a lot more dynamic [and exciting] than re-fighting the historical encounters anyway.
 
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Keith Anderson
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From the examples and ship charts, I have a good feel for the damage a ship can take and how many damage tokens it can hit with. Anyone see how much damage is done on average per damage token? I'm just trying to get a rough feel for how many salvos it will take to force a ship to surrender...

edit for surrender vs sink
 
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Roberto Di Meglio
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A shot from a 74-guns at short range may inflict 6-7 "B" tokens, each of them inflicting around 2.5 damages.
At long range, the average is about half that value.
The two tokens mix also have different variance apart from the average.

The number of damages a ship may endure is slightly variable (each box takes damage until one token exceeds the burden, so it may take a higher or lower number of hits depending on which tokens are drawn). Roughly, for the ships in the basic game, a frigate may take 20-30 damages before surrendering, a SOL about twice that.

So, at short range, a full broadside from a SOL will severely damage a frigate, and a second one probably might force it to surrender. At long range, or against a SOL, you will need to double that number of shots. And shots which are not full broadsides have about half the efficacy of a full broadside.

(PS I am deliberately slightly vague as we don't want to spoil too much of the "inner cogs" of the game - it's more fun if you find out how things work while playing...).
 
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cybernex wrote:
A shot from a 74-guns at short range may inflict 6-7 "B" tokens, each of them inflicting around 2.5 damages.
At long range, the average is about half that value.
The two tokens mix also have different variance apart from the average.

The number of damages a ship may endure is slightly variable (each box takes damage until one token exceeds the burden, so it may take a higher or lower number of hits depending on which tokens are drawn). Roughly, for the ships in the basic game, a frigate may take 20-30 damages before surrendering, a SOL about twice that.

So, at short range, a full broadside from a SOL will severely damage a frigate, and a second one probably might force it to surrender. At long range, or against a SOL, you will need to double that number of shots. And shots which are not full broadsides have about half the efficacy of a full broadside.

(PS I am deliberately slightly vague as we don't want to spoil too much of the "inner cogs" of the game - it's more fun if you find out how things work while playing...).


I agree about finding out through play. This does look great for enabling squadron actions since the combat damage from each broadside is significant.
 
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