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Subject: Negotiation encounter rss

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If both main players reveal negotiation cards and the human was an ally can he play cosmic zap on himself and win or he is out of the encounter
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David Montgomery
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I've always said that Human can be zapped and cause a win for his side even with 2 negotiates in play. There's a bit of fluidity to Cosmic, and I think this is one of those times where allies don't go away immediately after 2 negotiates. Also, things like Chosen can change card results before allies are sent home.
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Evan Coolen
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The Cosmic Zap card says you can cancel one use of any alien's power ,including your own. So in this regard I would say YES.

But the thing is, when Negotiates are played, the Human cannot really 'use' his power, because adding 4 to your side's total would not be possible, since there's no actual attack happening.
So he cannot zap his own power as it is not used.
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David
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Vjaas wrote:
The Cosmic Zap card says you can cancel one use of any alien's power ,including your own. So in this regard I would say YES.

But the thing is, when Negotiates are played, the Human cannot really 'use' his power, because adding 4 to your side's total would not be possible, since there's no actual attack happening.
So he cannot zap his own power as it is not used.


from Fantasy Flight's FAQ :

Quote:
Q: Can Human be zapped to win if both cards are Ns?
A: Yes. And yes, his opponent will receive
compensation if the opponent loses ships to the warp.

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Evan Coolen
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djhopscotch wrote:
Fantasy Flight's FAQ



Can't really argue with that
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Greg Filpus
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I can! Not with the answer to the OP's question, but the other part:

Quote:
Q: Can Human be zapped to win if both cards are Ns?
A: Yes. And yes, his opponent will receive
compensation if the opponent loses ships to the warp.


To receive compensation, you have to reveal a negotiate when your opponent reveals an attack.
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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Greg is right: the second half of the answer is flat-out wrong.

Unfortunately the FAQ is chock-full of bad answers like that. You really do have to second-guess everything you read in it and ask yourself, "is this actually true?" It's probably the most incorrect FAQ I've ever seen for any game.
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Evan Coolen
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On the other hand you could interpret it as: The Human adds 4 to his side, making it an attack+4, cancelling out the Negotiate, which would mean the other player could take compensation. If this power were zapped, he would win anyway but the former +4 would still count as the starting encounter situation?
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J. Riddell
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Vjaas wrote:
On the other hand you could interpret it as: The Human adds 4 to his side, making it an attack+4, cancelling out the Negotiate, which would mean the other player could take compensation. If this power were zapped, he would win anyway but the former +4 would still count as the starting encounter situation?
That's the way I read it, too. It would seem that if Human ends up winning the encounter then the opponent would get compensation.

So, assuming that the opponent should not receive compensation does the negotiate card itself eliminate the compensation regardless of the outcome of the encounter or is there some other reason I don't get?

It seems to me that for no compensation there should be no winner in the encounter, so Human would either should not be able to their power or compensation should be available to the opponent.

Please someone explain to me (Okay now I can't get Dot Dot Dot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2Z23SAFVA) out of my head)
 
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Just a Bill
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riddell wrote:
Vjaas wrote:
On the other hand you could interpret it as: The Human adds 4 to his side, making it an attack+4, cancelling out the Negotiate
That's the way I read it, too.

No, adding a modifier to your total does not convert your negotiate card into an attack card. You aren't modifying the physical card you played; you're modifying your abstract "encounter total."

riddell wrote:
So, assuming that the opponent should not receive compensation does the negotiate card itself eliminate the compensation regardless of the outcome of the encounter or is there some other reason I don't get?

It's all in the rulebook. Page 10:

If One Player Reveals an
Attack Card
and the Other
Reveals a Negotiate Card


The player who played the negotiate card loses the encounter
automatically. However, the losing player will get to claim
compensation by taking cards from the belligerent opponent’s
hand.

And then page 11:

Compensation
When one player plays a negotiate and his opponent plays an
attack card
, the player who played the negotiate card gets to
collect compensation. That player must randomly take one
card for each ship he or she lost to the warp (not counting any
allies’ ships – they go to the warp without compensation) from
his or her opponent’s hand. If the player’s opponent doesn’t
have enough cards to provide full compensation, the player
takes the opponent’s entire hand of cards.

And then the sidebar:

Compensation
vs. Rewards

Compensation is the term for cards a player gets
to steal from his or her opponent after losing an
encounter by playing a negotiate vs. the opponent’s
attack card
.

FFG is very sloppy with their terminology, sometimes saying "add to your card" when they really mean "add to your total." Sadly, the more material they publish, the more it becomes clear that they aren't even sure how this game is played.
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Evan Coolen
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Bill Martinson wrote:
sometimes saying "add to your card" when they really mean "add to your total".


OR...wow

sometimes saying "add to your total" when they really mean "add to your card"

AARRRGH! And they call them MOSTLY HARMLESS!! There's brains being seriously damaged here.

 
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J. Riddell
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Bill Martinson wrote:
riddell wrote:
Vjaas wrote:
On the other hand you could interpret it as: The Human adds 4 to his side, making it an attack+4, cancelling out the Negotiate
That's the way I read it, too.

No, adding a modifier to your total does not convert your negotiate card into an attack card. You aren't modifying the physical card you played; you're modifying your abstract "encounter total."

riddell wrote:
So, assuming that the opponent should not receive compensation does the negotiate card itself eliminate the compensation regardless of the outcome of the encounter or is there some other reason I don't get?

It's all in the rulebook. Page 10:

If One Player Reveals an
Attack Card
and the Other
Reveals a Negotiate Card


The player who played the negotiate card loses the encounter
automatically. However, the losing player will get to claim
compensation by taking cards from the belligerent opponent’s
hand.

And then page 11:

Compensation
When one player plays a negotiate and his opponent plays an
attack card
, the player who played the negotiate card gets to
collect compensation. That player must randomly take one
card for each ship he or she lost to the warp (not counting any
allies’ ships – they go to the warp without compensation) from
his or her opponent’s hand. If the player’s opponent doesn’t
have enough cards to provide full compensation, the player
takes the opponent’s entire hand of cards.

And then the sidebar:

Compensation
vs. Rewards

Compensation is the term for cards a player gets
to steal from his or her opponent after losing an
encounter by playing a negotiate vs. the opponent’s
attack card
.

FFG is very sloppy with their terminology, sometimes saying "add to your card" when they really mean "add to your total." Sadly, the more material they publish, the more it becomes clear that they aren't even sure how this game is played.
Bill, thanks for the well thought out response. That makes perfect sense of a very confusing mess. Cosmic is already confusing enough without poor wording in the rules making it more so. Why aren't the rules opened to these forums to give some time for edits and suggestions before the rules go to print. Why isn't the valuable insight found here used to produce updated rules that we can download?
 
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Mil Myman
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Vjaas wrote:
djhopscotch wrote:
Fantasy Flight's FAQ



Can't really argue with that

FUQ the FAQ!

The FAQ for this game has NO CREDIBILITY AT ALL! It should be called the FQA: Frequently Questionable Answers. In order for a FAQ to have credibility, it should be right more often than the average guy who considers himself an expert on the subject. This FAQ is right far less often than that.

Don't rely on a birth control method that's 70% effective.
Don't go to a mechanic who can fix your car 71% of the time.
Don't use a cleanser that kills 72% of germs.
Don't eat at a restaurant that serves 73% good food.
Don't bother reading FFG's FAQ for Cosmic Encounter.

No, you cannot Zap the Human (or any other power) unless and until it is used. And if the card on the Human's side is an N, then it can't be used.
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Evan Coolen
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:

No, you cannot Zap the Human (or any other power) unless and until it is used. And if the card on the Human's side is an N, then it can't be used.


Thats exactly what I thought the first time around
 
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Just a Bill
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Vjaas wrote:
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
if the card on the Human's side is an N, then it can't be used.
Thats exactly what I thought the first time around

This part I have to disagree with. Nowhere do the rules say that your "total" exists only if attack cards are revealed. Neither the rules on Reinforcements nor their card texts say or even imply that attack card(s) must be revealed for them to be used. In fact, the FAQ makes it plain that Reinforcements may be played even after a Negotiate card is revealed. The clear implication is that you always have an "encounter total," which is calculated from the ships on your side (if any) plus the attack card on your side (if any) plus any other modifiers such as reinforcements, the Prometheus, Human, etc.

So when the FAQ clearly (though awkwardly) states that Reinforcements can be played even if a Negotiate was revealed, and also clearly states that Human can be zapped if both cards are Negotiates, I'm compelled to accept it. I don't particularly like it, but beyond my dislike I can find no grounds for rejecting it. The FAQ is internally consistent on this interpretation that "total modifiers" are not dependent upon both players revealing attack cards, with three or four entries agreeing on this across the compensation, Human, and Pacifist sections. And this does not violate any other rules, or cause any gameplay breakage that I can find.

Yes, the second part of the Human answer is wrong and stupid, but I have to consider the two parts separately. If somebody says "the moon orbits the Earth and is made of cheese," the stupidity of the second part does not invalidate the truth of the first.
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