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Subject: Endless Straight... Before the Pass rss

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Mudlock .
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You pick up your cards, put them in order, and realize--OMG!--that you have the endless straight; 1 to A!

But this is before the pass. So, which cards from the perfect hand do you give away? And do you even call Tichu?

When this happened to me, I figured I'd end up with two low singles, but by calling Tichu, I would definitely get one high single from my partner. So I called, kept the ace, and passed K, Q, J, opening with a 10 card straight. Spoiler: it didn't work. But was it the probabilistically-correct move, or did I just get unlucky? Upon reflection, I think maybe passing 6, 7, 8--keeping the low-straight to open with, and a K- or A-high straight "in reserve"--might be the better move. Or a thid possibility, keep A and K, passing Q, J, 10, and opening with "just" a 9 card straight? Or something completely different, like passing a 2, trusting you'll get a replacement from an opponent?

What do you think?
 
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What did you wish for when you lead? I think keeping the high cards would have been a better idea so you could get the lead back if need be.

BOb
 
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Sean McCarthy
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I think I would pass 3, A, 2. It's not the end of the world to separate the 1 from the rest of the straight. It's also not terrible to give your partner the ace, since the rest of your hand is in a combination, or allowing you to play out said combination.

Another option you might consider is to pass 3, 1, 2, calling Tichu before the pass.
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Gustavo
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Starting with a straight is more of a curse than a blessing...

That said, I would probably not call Tichu. I would pass 10 J Q and keep K and A to use later. The most I would try with this hand is being ready to go out with your partner for 200 points.
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David desJardins
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If you call Tichu and pass KQJ, there's a 56% chance that you get Dragon or Phoenix from partner; either of those will let you make. But there's 44% chance that you get Ace or less, and then you're quite unlikely to make. So the expected value is close to zero.

Is the expected value if you do something else greater or less than zero? Hard to say.

I'd probably just pass A32.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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I definitely don't call Tichu pre-pass. Whether I call at all is largely dependent on what partner passed me.

I would pass 6-7-8. Lead the I2345 straight and expect to come back over it with 9TJQK, leaving you with the likely-lead, your ace, the hopefully-decent card your partner gave you, and the two crap cards your opponents gave you.
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Gustavo
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thatmarkguy wrote:
I definitely don't call Tichu pre-pass. Whether I call at all is largely dependent on what partner passed me.

I would pass 6-7-8. Lead the I2345 straight and expect to come back over it with 9TJQK, leaving you with the likely-lead, your ace, the hopefully-decent card your partner gave you, and the two crap cards your opponents gave you.


Yeah, but let's say his partner gives a middle card like a 10, and he gets 2 and 3 from the opponents. How is he going to get rid of the 2 and 3 having only an Ace?
 
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Mark McEvoy
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He's not. There's no 'solution' that makes his hand bulletproof to receiving three bad cards. The best case is still to not call Tichu before the pass.

Obviously passing the 2 and 3 is ideal if you know you're going to be passed a 2 and a 3. But you *don't* know that.
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David desJardins
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thatmarkguy wrote:
The best case is still to not call Tichu before the pass.


I don't know about that. The best case is probably to call Tichu and pass KQJ and have partner pass you Phoenix or Dragon. If you get either of those cards you're very likely to make Tichu regardless of what you get from the opponents or how they play.

So this works whenever partner has either of those cards, which is better than 50-50 (it's 1-(28*27)/(42*41) = 966/1722 = 56.1%).
 
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Ron
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Another option you might consider is to pass 3, 1, 2, calling Tichu before the pass.

That's what I would do. This way I make sure that my partner can pass me an ace/dragon/phoenix so that I can get rid of one of the useless cards I get from my opponents.

Sounds like easy 100 points for my team meeple
 
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David desJardins
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PzVIE wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
Another option you might consider is to pass 3, 1, 2, calling Tichu before the pass.

That's what I would do. This way I make sure that my partner can pass me an ace/dragon/phoenix so that I can get rid of one of the useless cards I get from my opponents.

Sounds like easy 100 points for my team meeple


If you get two low cards (not including a 3) how are you ever going to get in twice to lead them? Even if partner passes you Dragon or Phoenix, that's still only one entry. If partner passes you an Ace, then you have zero entries (one of your aces will be taken by the dragon and the other one by the phoenix). This plan will almost never work if you don't get a 3. It might not work even if you do get a 3 on the pass.
 
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Ron
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DaviddesJ wrote:
PzVIE wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
Another option you might consider is to pass 3, 1, 2, calling Tichu before the pass.

That's what I would do. This way I make sure that my partner can pass me an ace/dragon/phoenix so that I can get rid of one of the useless cards I get from my opponents.

Sounds like easy 100 points for my team meeple


If you get two low cards (not including a 3) how are you ever going to get in twice to lead them? Even if partner passes you Dragon or Phoenix, that's still only one entry. If partner passes you an Ace, then you have zero entries (one of your aces will be taken by the dragon and the other one by the phoenix). This plan will almost never work if you don't get a 3. It might not work even if you do get a 3 on the pass.

Alright, I have two cards that will trump (my ace and the high card from my partner) and a street that can only be beaten by a bomb.

If I get a 3 and any other card -> Tichu.
If I get a 2 and the Dog -> I may be in trouble; except my partner passed me the Phoenix.

So I'd say fortuna should be on my side!

EDIT: The ace from the street can also be used solo to win a trick!
 
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David desJardins
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PzVIE wrote:
If I get a 3 and any other card -> Tichu.
If I get a 2 and the Dog -> I may be in trouble; except my partner passed me the Phoenix.


You seem to be really missing the point. Suppose you get P, 2, Dog. Now you hold PAKQJT9876542D. How are you ever going to make your Tichu with that? Say you play the P on an ace and it's taken by the opponent's dragon. Then, next, you play your ace and it wins the trick. Now what? You've got KQJT987654, 2, Dog. That's basically hopeless.
 
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Timothy Hunt
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so, P, Dr and 2xA are gone. Play dog. watch for the other 2 aces and win a singleton trick with K, play Q-4, play 2
 
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David desJardins
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Timotheous wrote:
so, P, Dr and 2xA are gone. Play dog. watch for the other 2 aces and win a singleton trick with K, play Q-4, play 2


Wow, you must have the world's worst opponents if they let you do that.
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Ron
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DaviddesJ wrote:
PzVIE wrote:
If I get a 3 and any other card -> Tichu.
If I get a 2 and the Dog -> I may be in trouble; except my partner passed me the Phoenix.


You seem to be really missing the point. Suppose you get P, 2, Dog. Now you hold PAKQJT9876542D. How are you ever going to make your Tichu with that? Say you play the P on an ace and it's taken by the opponent's dragon. Then, next, you play your ace and it wins the trick. Now what? You've got KQJT987654, 2, Dog. That's basically hopeless.

You have to wait until you know where the Dragon is, of course. You can also always part your street in two halves if a street is played by an opponent. That scenario you describe is the worst case (getting a 2 and the Dog.
 
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David desJardins
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PzVIE wrote:
You have to wait until you know where the Dragon is, of course.


It's in one of the opponent's hands. And they aren't going to play it until you play your ace or phoenix.

Quote:
You can also always part your street in two halves if a street is played by an opponent.


But this is not much help, either you are left with a bunch of small cards, or maybe a small straight that is likely to lose when you lead it.

Quote:
That scenario you describe is the worst case (getting a 2 and the Dog.


No, getting Phoenix, 2, Dog is much better than the worst case. You could easily get Ace, 2, Dog, in which case you are never going to win even one singleton.
 
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Ron
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Still, I dare say that this Tichu will work more often than it will fail. Still, worst case is one good card from my partner and a 2 plus Dog from my opponents - chances are that I get more useful cards. But even with that, my Tichu has chances.

And I don't play only 100% safe Tichus . meeple
 
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Sean McCarthy
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DaviddesJ wrote:
If you get two low cards (not including a 3) how are you ever going to get in twice to lead them? Even if partner passes you Dragon or Phoenix, that's still only one entry. If partner passes you an Ace, then you have zero entries (one of your aces will be taken by the dragon and the other one by the phoenix). This plan will almost never work if you don't get a 3. It might not work even if you do get a 3 on the pass.


Well it doesn't work if you get 2 + dog, but that's an exceptional case. The plan is to play one single on your right opponent's 2 when your partner wishes it out, as they will surely will. Then you only need to get one lead to play the straight and the other single, and you probably have a pair of aces or better to do it with. I think this gives you a fairly good chance of success.
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David desJardins
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SevenSpirits wrote:
The plan is to play one single on your right opponent's 2 when your partner wishes it out, as they will surely will.


Well, your partner has to guess what to do. They could make a blind wish for a 2, but it's not like they know what you passed. It seems a bit optimistic to expect them to get that right every time.

I was mostly just surprised by the claim that, if you do get Phoenix, 2, Dog, then you're in good shape. It seems like a pretty bad position. I agree there are other better outcomes.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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DaviddesJ wrote:

Well, your partner has to guess what to do. They could make a blind wish for a 2, but it's not like they know what you passed. It seems a bit optimistic to expect them to get that right every time.

I was mostly just surprised by the claim that, if you do get Phoenix, 2, Dog, then you're in good shape. It seems like a pretty bad position. I agree there are other better outcomes.


Based on my experience they would get it right almost 100% of the time, though I realize that's partly due to the people I play with. One important thing to note is that the (in my experience) most common case where they wouldn't wish for a 2, is if they passed their LHO a 3. From this position I often see people reason that that reduced ability to play a single rank is compensated for by the fact that it's guaranteed to hit, unlike a 2 wish. But yay, for this hand, a 2 wish and a 3 wish (that hit) work (almost) equally well. The only card you are prevented from playing on RHO's 3 is a 3, but you can just add a 3 to your straight, so it's not very relevant.

I agree getting passed Phx, 2, Dog would put you in a rough position.
 
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Jonathan C
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mudlock wrote:
You pick up your cards, put them in order, and realize--OMG!--that you have the endless straight; 1 to A!

But this is before the pass. So, which cards from the perfect hand do you give away? And do you even call Tichu?

When this happened to me, I figured I'd end up with two low singles, but by calling Tichu, I would definitely get one high single from my partner. So I called, kept the ace, and passed K, Q, J, opening with a 10 card straight. Spoiler: it didn't work. But was it the probabilistically-correct move, or did I just get unlucky? Upon reflection, I think maybe passing 6, 7, 8--keeping the low-straight to open with, and a K- or A-high straight "in reserve"--might be the better move. Or a thid possibility, keep A and K, passing Q, J, 10, and opening with "just" a 9 card straight? Or something completely different, like passing a 2, trusting you'll get a replacement from an opponent?

What do you think?


Someone will probably pass you a two, so pass a two and a three. If not, you can still lead with a giant (4-Q) run which won't likely be beaten. Pass your partner the King, keep the Ace, in order to have the power to win a contest of singles after the dragon/phoenix is out of play. Consider calling Tichu, depending on what you get in the pass.
 
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Jonathan C
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DaviddesJ wrote:
PzVIE wrote:
If I get a 3 and any other card -> Tichu.
If I get a 2 and the Dog -> I may be in trouble; except my partner passed me the Phoenix.


You seem to be really missing the point. Suppose you get P, 2, Dog. Now you hold PAKQJT9876542D. How are you ever going to make your Tichu with that? Say you play the P on an ace and it's taken by the opponent's dragon. Then, next, you play your ace and it wins the trick. Now what? You've got KQJT987654, 2, Dog. That's basically hopeless.


It's not that hopeless, save the K and play the 4-Q run.
 
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Jeff Chunko
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Unless your partner has all the other aces, you'll never get the lead.
 
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