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Subject: Moving a time marker from the factory rss

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Ken Thibodeau
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Can you put your TM directly into the liquidation? If it's possible, what happens if there's only one customer? Does he buy the liquidation and therefore deny other players from any money? Or do you cash in directly your 3$ and the sole customer buys from anothe rplayer?
 
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Jon Ben
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This has been discussed before. I believe Seth said that if someone wanted to go directly to liquidation then that should be allowed. The customer would not get used up (liquidation does not do that).

However, I think it's silly to do this and should not be allowed. You can always move to liquidation after the customers are satisfied. The only time this matters is if all the retail locations are full.
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Seth Jaffee
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JonBen wrote:
This has been discussed before. I believe Seth said that if someone wanted to go directly to liquidation then that should be allowed. The customer would not get used up (liquidation does not do that).

However, I think it's silly to do this and should not be allowed. You can always move to liquidation after the customers are satisfied. The only time this matters is if all the retail locations are full.

Yes, I believe that was basically my response.

It's strictly better to NOT go directly to Liquidation, but it ought to be allowed just in case every space at the outlets is taken up.

So don't do that unless forced, which is theoretically possible but I bet will never happen.
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Jon Ben
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Thanks for confirming.

I was just discussing something similar in a friend's design. My position is that rules should not present what seems like a choice, when no reasonable person would consider it a choice. So in this case the rule should not allow movement directly to liquidation. However, it is important to cover the exceptional case of the retail outlets being full. Even though, as you point out, this will never happen.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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JonBen wrote:
Thanks for confirming.

I was just discussing something similar in a friend's design. My position is that rules should not present what seems like a choice, when no reasonable person would consider it a choice. So in this case the rule should not allow movement directly to liquidation. However, it is important to cover the exceptional case of the retail outlets being full. Even though, as you point out, this will never happen.

I agree with your assertion, to an extent.

I would prefer to allow the player a choice that's obviously bad than to have to supply additional rules in order to protect them from making a bad decision.

In this case for example, I'd rather say "If you can't figure out that placing in Liquidation is strictly worse than not placing there, then go ahead and do it and potentially lose out on some $" and have the rules work the same for all players at all times, rather than say "Placing directly into Liquidation is dumb, so you're not allowed to do it." And then having to address the question "what happens if all the spots are full - where do I place my TM?"

In my opinion that would be creating a bad rule plus an exception instead of a good rule in the first place.
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Jon Ben
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Quote:
I would prefer to allow the player a choice that's obviously bad than to have to supply additional rules in order to protect them from making a bad decision.


Yea I agree with your caveat. I don't think people should write smart play into the rules. For example the rule in Thurn and Taxis that you must draw two cards on your first turn is a silly waste of ink.

In this case the rules are clear that you can place into retail outlets and silent about the liquidation. You either add a statement that says you can place in liquidation as well as the retail outlets, or you say that if the retail outlets are full you can place in liquidation. Either way it's a one sentence fix. I don't see the point of choosing the sentence that suggests there is some reason you would go direct to liquidation by choice.

 
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foksieloy
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The reason why wording it without caring if it suggests what might be a good option is so you do not limit yourself in the future.

Example: an expansion comes out and now players have a choice to spend time markers to incur extra costs on sections of the board. For example they can make it so that to place a time marker from the factory to retail you must pay 1 info, unless you immediately liquidate.

Now, if all slots but the $6 ones are filled, it becomes very situational if it is better to get $6 and lose 1 info, or to get $3.
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Jon Ben
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Expansions come with new rules.
 
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foksieloy
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JonBen wrote:
Expansions come with new rules.


Yes, but it is much more elegant when they do not have to overwrite things in the main game instead of simply adding to them.
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Jon Ben
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foksieloy wrote:
JonBen wrote:
Expansions come with new rules.


Yes, but it is much more elegant when they do not have to overwrite things in the main game instead of simply adding to them.


I see your point. However:

Alex: "Wait isn't that rule silly and misleading?"
Erin: "Only in the base game, if you wait for the expansion it will make more sense."
Alex: "Aren't we playing the base game?"
Erin: "Yes."
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Just because selling for Liquidation is almost always a bad move, it doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad move. In particular, it lets you earn just a small amount of money, especially if you have in-house factory.

For example, suppose you have the in house factory, 3 remaining time, $3+2i remaining, and have four floors built. You've already placed on the factory (and it's a boom, so you're confident you'll sell for $12), and desperately need to end the game - if you can end it this turn, you'll definitely win. Fortunately, you have a time marker by the first space of Consulting, but there's no way anyone else will go there.

Now, it's possible you have other options available to you, to get you the $12+12i you need for the fifth floor. But at the very least, liquidising is a winning move here when merely placing is not: Spend 2 time on in-house factory, immediately liquidising for $3 (giving you $6+2i). Next turn, spend $6 to place in consulting. After business, you'll get up to $12+12i, giving you just enough to buy the final floor.
 
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Jon Ben
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Martin I think you are confused.

We are not talking about making liquidation become an immediate action upon placing in the Factory. That is not allowed! You must wait for the Factory to resolve during conduct business. The discussion here is about moving from the factory directly to liquidation instead of placing in the retail outlets.
 
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Oh, shoot, you're right, that doesn't work. Call it a half asleep misthought.

Hmm... Actually, playing correctly it's even easier to find an edge case. Lots of people have gone to the Factory, and you're placing there last. Thanks to people trying to guarantee a sale, all five of the lowest spaces ($6-$8) have filled, while some above spaces are still empty. As the max number of customers is 5, your best option to get the desperately needed money for your next floor now is to Liquidate for $3, rather than fail to sell at $10-$12.

I think this works and makes sense?
 
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Jason Clague
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I Eat Tables wrote:
Oh, shoot, you're right, that doesn't work. Call it a half asleep misthought.

Hmm... Actually, playing correctly it's even easier to find an edge case. Lots of people have gone to the Factory, and you're placing there last. Thanks to people trying to guarantee a sale, all five of the lowest spaces ($6-$8) have filled, while some above spaces are still empty. As the max number of customers is 5, your best option to get the desperately needed money for your next floor now is to Liquidate for $3, rather than fail to sell at $10-$12.

I think this works and makes sense?


But even if you place at $12 and it fails to sell, you can then liquidate for $3 in the same turn. This is why there is no reason to ever go straight to liquidation.
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superbgg wrote:
I Eat Tables wrote:
Oh, shoot, you're right, that doesn't work. Call it a half asleep misthought.

Hmm... Actually, playing correctly it's even easier to find an edge case. Lots of people have gone to the Factory, and you're placing there last. Thanks to people trying to guarantee a sale, all five of the lowest spaces ($6-$8) have filled, while some above spaces are still empty. As the max number of customers is 5, your best option to get the desperately needed money for your next floor now is to Liquidate for $3, rather than fail to sell at $10-$12.

I think this works and makes sense?


But even if you place at $12 and it fails to sell, you can then liquidate for $3 in the same turn. This is why there is no reason to ever go straight to liquidation.


You can drop down more than one price bracket surprise? Okay, yeah, then I think... yeah, no reason to ever do it.
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Jason Clague
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I Eat Tables wrote:

You can drop down more than one price bracket surprise? Okay, yeah, then I think... yeah, no reason to ever do it.


Yes, you can drop as far as you like, even to Liquidation.
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I should really give the rules another quick one time over to make sure there's nothing else I'm missing...
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So, this is an old thread, but having actually played the game now, I've already come across a situation where being able to liquidate immediately actually could have won me the game (I came 2nd, since I didn't think of the option until too late, and then lost on the popularity tiebreaker).

It's slightly convoluted, but... If you are guaranteed (or even just likely) to sell an expensive good and there are few customers, then you don't want to place a product at a lower level, since it means selling it for less money and still liquidating the rest. This only really makes sense as an overall move in a few situations since it typically only earns $1.

Or to illustrate this with the actual game situation:

It was a 3 player game, round 9, in a depression. The first depression had been a 1 customer one, so there was a 1/3rds chance of there being a customer here (0/0/1/1 customers in a three player game). Thing is the last few rounds had been recessions and the other depression, and all of us being beginners, we all had basically no money and not much way of getting any. I had Premium Product though, and had already placed into the Factory hoping to sell at $16 to afford one more floor. If I didn't sell there, I would be just short of the money I needed. I later realised, wait, placing into the factory nets me +$3 at a time if I liquidate, while Research only gets me +$2 (the info was worthless, I had plenty). But if I placed it anywhere other than Liquidating, I would sell the product for less - so I HAD to liquidate to earn maximum money. And if I'd done this with all of my products from the start of the turn (minus ones needed to earn the $2 to get into the factory), I would end up with just enough money to get the floor regardless of if there was a customer!


Edit: I actually just realised, THIS specific situation didn't require me to be able to liquidate immediately, since it didn't end up mattering if I sold or not. But if I did NEED to sell for $16 AND make the $5 from each liquidation, then it would have mattered. It's a pretty odd situation - but in this one freak instance, it would be optimal to do. So it does kinda work, and does give some context for a situation where liquidating is a thing you want to do.

Here's a simpler situation:

There are 0-1 customers in this, the final round. Nobody is sitting on retail, and you have two disks to move over. Maximise your profit.

It seems trivial to work out you place one at $16 and immediately liquidate the other, then hope you draw into 1 customer and not 0. If you place in any other way (likely $16 and $12) you sell for $12 instead, making $15 instead of $19 money.

It's a rare situation, but it's possible.
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Jon Ben
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I Eat Tables wrote:
There are 0-1 customers in this, the final round. Nobody is sitting on retail, and you have two disks to move over. Maximise your profit.

It seems trivial to work out you place one at $16 and immediately liquidate the other, then hope you draw into 1 customer and not 0. If you place in any other way (likely $16 and $12) you sell for $12 instead, making $15 instead of $19 money.

It's a rare situation, but it's possible.


Yea, for some reason this point was not brought up in the thread.
I wonder if Seth agrees with my proposed rewording in light if this

This example shows that it is not strictly better to place in the retail locations, it can be in your advantage to liquidate even when there is room left in retail. Hopefully Seth or David are still subscribed and find time to share their thoughts.
 
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This is the kind of thing that I feel should be allowed - think of it as driving up the price of your goods by creating an artificial shortage. E.g. the Diamond trade in the real world.
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