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Subject: Corp Deck Discussion: 45 vs 49 cards rss

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Jon Kern
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The basic trade-off is that 45 card decks are more susceptible to losing agendas at a slightly faster rate while offering a better opportunity of opening with a more powerful hand. In my experience, which is only a few hundred games on octgn I would say that 45 card decks typically work better more often. However, I can see an argument for running 49 cards based on the amount of noise decks one expects to see in their meta.

What are some thoughts that you guys have concerning the 45 vs 49 card corp deck decision?
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Jack Keys
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I've tried both, and I've really settled into 45 cards. I'm not convinced that the small amount of agenda padding is really worth it for the loss of efficiency. All of my decks are now at 45 cards, and I find they work far better. I've played against Noise mill decks and Medium deep dig decks before, and 45 cards typically means that I can win faster, so it hasn't really been an issue.
 
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Falln The Kobold
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It doesn't make that much difference. If you use cards to tutor for other cards, then you can better play a bigger deck. If you want a certain card in your opening hand and are willing to take a mulligan for it, then you have 55,2% chance of having that card in your first 5 or second 6 cards (after mulligan); if you use a 49 card deck then you have "only" 51,8% chance of having that certain card. A difference of 3,3%. Once in 30 games you'll notice a difference.
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Kevin
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Great question. I've been giving this some thought, and I think it really depends on the deck.
Weyland tag 'n bag works much better with 45. You don't need oodles of ice, and you really want to hit certain specific cards to either kill (bounty, scorched, sea source - or just an atlas) or advance unstoppably (oversight, agendas), so the less bloat the better.
With other decks I'm not so sure. Let's say the four cards you're on the fence about are ICE, and you go from 18/45 to 22/49. That makes each individual card ~10% more likely to be ICE, which can be a big deal, especially when it comes to drawing playable opening hands

I'd say 49 is worse than 45 against Noise in most cases, since upshot of being able to win faster tends to outweigh the downside of higher probability of agendas falling into archives.
 
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Vasilis
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Green level Clearance for the decks that can afford its influence is a GREAT way to have both 45-card efficiency with a 48 card deck dilution at the same time, if you know what I mean...

Try it. meeple
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Iain Galloway
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Falln wrote:
Once in 30 games you'll notice a difference.


Unless your deck only needs one card to function, that's not quite true. With fewer cards, you're slightly more likely to get the card you want every time you draw a card.

That's not to say 45 cards is the only answer. It depends a lot on the makeup of your deck. Corp decks typically have fewer chase cards (e.g. "I just need any one of my 18 etr ICE" vs "I need to draw one of my two Personal Workshops"), so the ratio is more important. The difference in the agenda ratio is also quite significant (The runner needs about two additional R&D accesses to score 7 points against a 49 card deck).

A defensive deck with few moving parts that advances agendas in the midgame probably cares more about denying access to agendas. An aggressive deck (e.g. NBN tag-n-bag, but arguably fast advance and more offensive weyland variants as well) probably cares more about consistency of draws and access to specific cards.
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Falln The Kobold
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m0wgli3 wrote:
Falln wrote:
Once in 30 games you'll notice a difference.


Unless your deck only needs one card to function, that's not quite true. With fewer cards, you're slightly more likely to get the card you want every time you draw a card.

That's not to say 45 cards is the only answer. It depends a lot on the makeup of your deck. Corp decks typically have fewer chase cards (e.g. "I just need any one of my 18 etr ICE" vs "I need to draw one of my two Personal Workshops"), so the ratio is more important. The difference in the agenda ratio is also quite significant (The runner needs about two additional R&D accesses to score 7 points against a 49 card deck).

A defensive deck with few moving parts that advances agendas in the midgame probably cares more about denying access to agendas. An aggressive deck (e.g. NBN tag-n-bag, but arguably fast advance and more offensive weyland variants as well) probably cares more about consistency of draws and access to specific cards.


If you have 18 ICE with etr in your deck, chance of having at least 1 (counting first draw of five cards followed by a mulligan and six cards) is 99,76% in a 45 card deck, while it's 99,53% in a 49 card deck. Getting one of two cards becomes 38% in a 49 card deck and 41% in a 45 card deck. A difference of 3% or you'll notice it every 30 games on average.
 
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Steven Tu
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It depends on how your deck runs, and what it's weak to. If you're full of MMCs, Red Herrings, traps, 1 pointers, then 45 cards will just kill it that much faster, especially if R&D access is given up easily (ie rush and non-defence deck).

If you have a highly solid deck full of operations (GLC, great example of deck thinning without giving up points, especially in Weyland) and ICE, then 45 is less of a problem.
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Iain Galloway
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Falln wrote:
A difference of 3% or you'll notice it every 30 games on average.


You're missing my point. If you take your opening hand and never draw another card sure.

However, with fewer cards in your deck every time you draw a card it's more likely to be the one you need. For example, on average a 45-card Weyland deck requires two fewer draws to draw two of its three Scorched Earths for a kill.
 
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Falln The Kobold
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m0wgli3 wrote:
Falln wrote:
A difference of 3% or you'll notice it every 30 games on average.


You're missing my point. If you take your opening hand and never draw another card sure.

However, with fewer cards in your deck every time you draw a card it's more likely to be the one you need. For example, on average a 45-card Weyland deck requires two fewer draws to draw two of its three Scorched Earths for a kill.


I do get your point, but the math shows that the feeling you have, doesn't make much significant differences. Let's say you want 75% chance of drawing that one card (using three copies) in your deck. When do you draw that card. You'll have less chance in your openinghand. 28% vs 30%. So after taking a mulligan you'll have 48 vs 51% chance. So to reach the 75% chance of having at least one of the three copies you'll have to start drawing cards. 10 cards in the 49 card deck and 9 additional cards in the 45 card deck. This means 1 click difference between the two choises.
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Carlos Saldanha
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I'm using a 54 cards Corp deck, 10 Agendas. Only 2 are 3-pointers and the rest are all 2-pointers.
I have 20 ICE in there, only 4 of them don't ETR and one is Janus.
I also have 3 Green Lvl Clearence to speed up things.

Yes, it's a HB Trick of Light deck!

But this deck plays well with several cards because I need the time to set up Advancements to use with ToL, and time = more cards to dig through R&D.

I used to play a SEA Scorched deck that was only 45 Cards with 3 Anonymous Tips.

I guess it will depend on the deck and the deck strategy. If you need to trigger a combo or a key card like Scorched Earth, the lesser the better; but if you have a slow tempo deck that needs to setup well I guess the more cards the better, that would buy time from your R&D and would give you more options.

And at current cardpool it's fun to build 50ish Corp decks!
 
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David Jensen
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The only benefit to 45 vs 49 is completely dependent on the theme and strategy of your deck.

In a vacuum, if you wanted to compare 45 vs 49 all you can discuss is that more cards prevent losing to decking.

Some will argue consistency matters, but you could at some future state play a 45 or 49 card deck that includes only one offs. In which case consistency goes out the window.

My point - there is no discussion on the difference between 45 vs 49 vs 54 until you've seen a deck list and accompanying pre-game strategies.
 
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Brian B
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I am unsure how 45 card decks really work. Between agendas, ICE requirements, and then money card requirements you will generally have ~3-6 spots to fil to get to 45 cards(this assumes ~10 agendas, ~20 ICE, ~9 money cards). Best case scenario you lower the agenda count and make it harder to score(3/5's), but have the same chance to draw those agendas and worst case you simply increase the chance for agenda draw by having so many. A 45 card deck also leaves little room to put operations, upgrades, assets, or additional money cards. Yes you will increase your chances of getting cards in the deck due to having less total cards, but what sort of strategy are you really running(I guess 3x ToL or 3x Sea Source) that you really need those specific cards out early on?

 
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SilverSaint wrote:
I am unsure how 45 card decks really work. Between agendas, ICE requirements, and then money card requirements you will generally have ~3-6 spots to fil to get to 45 cards(this assumes ~10 agendas, ~20 ICE, ~9 money cards).


This assumes many things.
1) That the same number of cards (10/20/9) holds when you lower deck size
2) That Money cards are not also ICE or Agenda
3) That Agenda are not defensive or money cards

Challenge those assumptions.
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Iain Galloway
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Falln wrote:
I do get your point, but the math shows that the feeling you have, doesn't make much significant differences.


I stand by my point. That small difference applied to every card you draw adds up to a measurable difference over the course of a game.

Whether that difference is worth the increased vulnerability of R&D to random access is another matter entirely.
 
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James Finkle
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notyetsuperman wrote:
The only benefit to 45 vs 49 is completely dependent on the theme and strategy of your deck.

In a vacuum, if you wanted to compare 45 vs 49 all you can discuss is that more cards prevent losing to decking.

Some will argue consistency matters, but you could at some future state play a 45 or 49 card deck that includes only one offs. In which case consistency goes out the window.

My point - there is no discussion on the difference between 45 vs 49 vs 54 until you've seen a deck list and accompanying pre-game strategies.


Not entirely true. More cards means two important things:
A) Fewer agendas per card, assuming you play at the upper limit of an agenda points bracket (i.e. 49 instead of 45). This decreases your chances of drawing multiple agendas in your opening hand/in a row, as well as decreasing the chance for the runner to get a blind agenda draw on an R&D access. In a 7-agenda deck (all 3's or 6 3's and a 2), going from 45 to 49 cards brings the chance of any one card being an agenda from 15.6% to 14.3%. 1.4% isn't huge, but it is a pretty big deal. It takes an average of 21 R&D hits to see 3 agendas at 49 cards, but at 45, it's only ~19 accesses.
At 10 agendas (all 2's), there's a 22.2% chance of seeing an agenda at 45 cards, and a 20.4% chance of seeing an agenda at 49. That's a difference of 1.8%. It means to see 4 agendas through random R&D accesses, it takes an average of ~20 accesses at 49 cards, while it only takes 18 accesses at 45. Again, it's forcing the runner to run an average of 2 more times in order to win.

B) Lower Influence density. Each deck is limited to a certain number of out of faction influence, and increasing the number of cards in the deck decreases how frequently you'll see these out-of-faction cards. This is why it's rarely advisable to run MORE than 49 cards, despite the fact that you'll decrease your point density by ~.1 point per 5 cards you add.
 
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Brian B
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byronczimmer wrote:
SilverSaint wrote:
I am unsure how 45 card decks really work. Between agendas, ICE requirements, and then money card requirements you will generally have ~3-6 spots to fil to get to 45 cards(this assumes ~10 agendas, ~20 ICE, ~9 money cards).


This assumes many things.
1) That the same number of cards (10/20/9) holds when you lower deck size
2) That Money cards are not also ICE or Agenda
3) That Agenda are not defensive or money cards

Challenge those assumptions.


1) The number of cards holds true unless you lower your agendas to mostly 3's, which I mentioned. You still need a similar amount of ICE and money cards in a 45 card deck vs a 49 card deck.

2) Just because Pop-up window is an ICE doesn't mean it serves the same role as other ICE. Pop-up window is purely a money card and you shouldn't consider 1 pop-up window as 1 ICE, though it can also bluff as ICE which is nice. There are other ICE as well(Shadow and Caduceus) that can generate money and serve the role of being ICE better, but its more about they are cheaper to rez due to their money subroutines and unless the runner keeps running, it won't serve as a money card.

3) Agendas are clearly both, but the selection is limited, so much so that you will run similar agendas in both a 45 and 49 card deck for the same faction. I fail to see how you can modify it so much that it makes that 45 card deck just way better.
 
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SilverSaint wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
SilverSaint wrote:
I am unsure how 45 card decks really work. Between agendas, ICE requirements, and then money card requirements you will generally have ~3-6 spots to fil to get to 45 cards(this assumes ~10 agendas, ~20 ICE, ~9 money cards).


This assumes many things.
1) That the same number of cards (10/20/9) holds when you lower deck size
2) That Money cards are not also ICE or Agenda
3) That Agenda are not defensive or money cards

Challenge those assumptions.


1) The number of cards holds true unless you lower your agendas to mostly 3's, which I mentioned. You still need a similar amount of ICE and money cards in a 45 card deck vs a 49 card deck.

Disagree.
In a 49 card deck I want to run 19-20 ICE
In a 45 card deck I want to run 18-19 ICE

That's a card, probably one of the ones I cut out of the 49.

Quote:
2) Just because Pop-up window is an ICE doesn't mean it serves the same role as other ICE. Pop-up window is purely a money card and you shouldn't consider 1 pop-up window as 1 ICE, though it can also bluff as ICE which is nice. There are other ICE as well(Shadow and Caduceus) that can generate money and serve the role of being ICE better, but its more about they are cheaper to rez due to their money subroutines and unless the runner keeps running, it won't serve as a money card.


If you say so. That bluff is critical, since you cannot bluff a PAD as an ICE ever.

Quote:
3) Agendas are clearly both, but the selection is limited, so much so that you will run similar agendas in both a 45 and 49 card deck for the same faction. I fail to see how you can modify it so much that it makes that 45 card deck just way better.

PriReq is a great example. If you're running a lot of expensive or agenda eating ICE, PriReq can save 8-12 credits. If you're running mostly low cost ICE, PriReq will save 2-5 credits.

That decision is impacted by the rest of the deck, and the speed of the deck.

Here's a Challenge:
Start with 3 Anonymous Tips and 3 Green Level Clearances and form a deck with a limit of 45 cards.
What decisions are you making that you didn't make by starting with ID or Agenda choices?
 
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