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Subject: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry for 1986 Ogre: Deluxe Edition rss

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Scott A. Reed
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I had a question from a user about how long it's taking to get his entry approved, but I've held off on proceeding because he's asking for a split of a certain edition of Ogre from this entry. Here's the current thread

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/964474/how-long-to-get-a....

And this is the information that has been submitted

Game Description wrote:
This is a special edition of Steve Jackson's Ogre. The classic cyber tank versus a conventional force of "regular" tanks, missile launchers, howitzers, infantry, and the G.E.V.

The game uses a HEX based map, igo-ugo, with one player controlling the Ogre, and the other side the conventional forces. You use attack strength vs defense value to find an odds and then roll die against standard CRT to find the result.

What makes this version so unique is that it uses plastic stands for the all of the counters. The map is mounted. I do not know how many were printed, but even the fine folks at SJG do not have it listed in their "Everything We've Ever Released" page.

Also there has been a lot of confusion with this release of the game and "Deluxe Ogre". "Deluxe Ogre" is the miniatures version of Ogre. The key to knowing the difference between them is the order of the words.


Note to Admin wrote:
Dear Admin. This is IMHO a distinctive version of this classic game. It is completely stand alone. All of the other versions of this game will work with some other version. IE the original Ogre counters with work with G.E.V. The Deluxe Ogre version is the miniatures version and it meshes with Deluxe G.E.V. It is very rare. Even online searches only get a hand full hits. And most of those are people confusing this game with Deluxe Ogre.


Second note to Admin wrote:
To Whom it concerns. This version of Ogre deserves it own entry in the database because it is distinctly different version of this classic (IMHO) game that has been released. First, it is currently the only version with a mounted map board. Second, it is super sized. I have been in contact with SJG and here is the final response..

I'm not sure why it's not showing up on the Everything page. In our database the price is $16.95. What other information do you need?


I know there are differing opinions on whether games should be split apart or merged together, but I thought I would see what the Ogre players thought of this edition being a separate entry. Splits are a PITA and I don't like to do them unless they are necessary, but dothe differences highlighted here (scale and incompatibility with expansions) warrant a split, or should this be a notation in the version entry?

Apparently this was unclear to anyone who skimmed this post -- this is in reference to the 1986 "Ogre: Deluxe Edition" and is not at all related to the 2013 Kickstarter edition.
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Scot Ryder
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
How is Ogre: Deluxe Edition incompatible with Ogre? I'm not sure a mounted map and counter stands makes the game incompatible if the rules and unit stats are the same.
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Lee Smith

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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
I don't see a reason for the split. The rules are fundamentally the same and the theme hasn't changed. You could play the pocket version with the new edition components and vice-versa. It's just a new deluxe version of the game.
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Russ Williams
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
It sure sounds like it's simply a different version (different physical equipment) of the same game (same rules), just as we don't have a zillion different entries for chess because of the different physical chess sets (classic style, Civil War pieces, Simpsons pieces, weird modern art blob pieces, magnetic disks in a travel edition, large vertical teaching boards with magnetic or velcro pieces, etc etc) which exist.
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Thomas Diener
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
Case for a split:
CATAN 3D Collector's Edition3d edition versus Catan standard
Obviously not compatible w/ the basic game.

Case Against:
Pocket Ogre versus Deluxe Ogre
(original pocket game versus the One with miniatures)
Also obviously not compatible.

I would argue that the miniatures based release is far more deserving
of a separate entry than the plastic stand version
(or am I totally confused, and the OP is in fact asking
to split the OGRE Deluxe miniatures version into a separate entry...?).

In either case, I don't see the need for it. Same Rules, same component mix: same game.
Different countries don't have different entries for differing editions
eg Descartes Editeur Dune vs The Avalon Hill Game Co Dune.
Certainly as much difference there: moreso in fact.
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David Valenze
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
No reason to split it. The rules are exactly identical to all earlier versions of Ogre. The physical components are the only thing that is different.
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KC Skedzielewski
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
All I ask is for some consistency.

There are two options is my mind...

1) Make a new entry for this edition

2) Remove the entries for Puerto Rico Deluxe, and CATAN 3D Collector's Edition, and every other edition/version that has it's own entry...

To me it would seem that you have already set a precedent for a new entry...

also what about those of us who are getting pocket ogre as well? I'd love to be able to make it noted that I own both of them...


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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
It's the 21st century. Bandwidth and memory for storing a new version of a game aren't an issue. Given that BGG has an entry for Munchkin Water there's no reason they shouldn't have a separate entry for this version of Ogre. From a database perspective alone, and for those that use BGG to catalog their games it makes perfect sense.
 
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Russ Williams
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
kcskedz wrote:
also what about those of us who are getting pocket ogre as well? I'd love to be able to make it noted that I own both of them...

You can already do that with versions.
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John Holder
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
I am against a split for this game. Use game versions.

I could see a split of ogre miniatures (almost the same rules as base ogre tho), if any split is to occur on ogre at all.
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
I agree with splitting this game. The designer's edition is not just Ogre. It includes GEV and Shockwave.
 
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
Vote for No.

Space Hulk (third edition) also should not have been split from Space Hulk
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
Mundane wrote:
I agree with splitting this game. The designer's edition is not just Ogre. It includes GEV and Shockwave.


True, but the fifth edition of Ogre has GEV included.
 
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Scot Ryder
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
chiron.42 wrote:
Mundane wrote:
I agree with splitting this game. The designer's edition is not just Ogre. It includes GEV and Shockwave.


True, but the fifth edition of Ogre has GEV included.

Wasn't that called Ogre/GEV? There's a decent case for splitting that one since it's a compilation of two releases.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
The new version sure as heck isnt my little old pocket edition.

Commentary in the rulebook by Steeve.
Quote:
This edition of Ogre includes the rules and map originally released as G.E.V., plus some material first introduced in the supplements Shockwave, Battlefields, and Ogre Reinforcement Pack.

This edition has been completely revised and reorganized. We have retained the case numbering system, medieval though it is, because it makes cross-referencing so easy. This rulebook is also available as a searchable PDF.


The rulebook doesnt look anything like the original. Steve isnt kidding when he says they packed this version.
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Robert Saint John
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
Seems to me that within this thread, people are talking about different versions. Isn't the OP in question referring the Ogre Deluxe Edition (1987, with counters and stands)? Or are they talking about Deluxe Ogre (2000, with minis)?

I typed out a whole thing from this point on in favor of keeping them as different versions of the same game, but the more I typed, the more torn I was. Based on how other games are treated, I think the Ogre listing here is kind of a mess. Ogre (1977) is not the same as Ogre/G.E.V. (2000) is not the same as Ogre Designer Edition (2013).

I can see the argument that Ogre (1977), Ogre Deluxe Edition (1987), Deluxe Ogre (2000) and Pocket Ogre (2013) are different versions of the same game, with different components and packaging. But once stuff from G.E.V. gets thrown in, the game changes beyond just presentation.

Right now, this listing, Ogre is being treated more like a Family of Ogre games, rather than a collection of versions.

In the end, I can't decide what the best way to fix this would be. But it seems like something needs to be fixed for the sake of consistency.
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Curt Carpenter
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
No split if it's just component differences. Of course BGG doesn't have a clean history on making this distinction, but it's never too late to start.

Walt Mulder wrote:
It's the 21st century. Bandwidth and memory for storing a new version of a game aren't an issue.

It has nothing to do with bandwidth or memory. It's about data coherency.

Walt Mulder wrote:
Given that BGG has an entry for Munchkin Water there's no reason they shouldn't have a separate entry for this version of Ogre.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Brian Rayburn
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
mechascorpio wrote:
Seems to me that within this thread, people are talking about different versions. Isn't the OP in question referring the Ogre Deluxe Edition (1987, with counters and stands)? Or are they talking about Deluxe Ogre (2000, with minis)?

I typed out a whole thing from this point on in favor of keeping them as different versions of the same game, but the more I typed, the more torn I was. Based on how other games are treated, I think the Ogre listing here is kind of a mess. Ogre (1977) is not the same as Ogre/G.E.V. (2000) is not the same as Ogre Designer Edition (2013).

I can see the argument that Ogre (1977), Ogre Deluxe Edition (1987), Deluxe Ogre (2000) and Pocket Ogre (2013) are different versions of the same game, with different components and packaging. But once stuff from G.E.V. gets thrown in, the game changes beyond just presentation.

Right now, this listing, Ogre is being treated more like a Family of Ogre games, rather than a collection of versions.

In the end, I can't decide what the best way to fix this would be. But it seems like something needs to be fixed for the sake of consistency.


This is pretty much how I see it. Although several versions do have completely different 'levels' of contents, there are a few iterations that only change the look/style of the components. I think there's precedent for an 'Ogre Family' entry, as well as a separate entry for something like Ogre/GEV or the Designer's Edition.

-Brian
 
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Scot Ryder
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
There's already an Ogre/GEV family.

I can see cases for Designer Edition and Deluxe Ogre / Deluxe GEV being separate entries. But Ogre Deluxe Edition only difference is a mounted map and counter stands.
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Brian Rayburn
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
Yeah, my search-fu is weak. And even after all these years I still have trouble finding stuff on here laugh Thanks for prompting me to look closer.

-Brian
 
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Scott A. Reed
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
kcskedz wrote:
All I ask is for some consistency.
1) Make a new entry for this edition
2) Remove the entries for Puerto Rico Deluxe, and CATAN 3D Collector's Edition, and every other edition/version that has it's own entry...


The question being asked here is about whether this version of OGRE should be separated as a separate game entry, and it is not related to other compilation entries in the database. For more on the issue of calling out "be consistent", please see this post --> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/11949630#11949630

Walt Mulder wrote:
BGG has an entry for Munchkin Water there's no reason they shouldn't have a separate entry for this version of Ogre.


Also not really germane to the topic at hand. Munchkin Water is published as an expansion from Steve Jackson games and has in-game effects, despite the seeming-ridiculousness and non-game-ness of the product. The issue here about making a different entry for OGRE is not about database size or bandwidth constraints, but hinges instead on whether this is a separate product and whether this would benefit from having a separate game item space with its own discussion and ownership information. The alternative to this separation is to have it as a version of this entry, and its information is folded in with the overall information about OGRE and the other versions listed here.

mechascorpio wrote:
Isn't the OP in question referring the Ogre Deluxe Edition (1987, with counters and stands)? Or are they talking about Deluxe Ogre (2000, with minis)?


This was submitted as a 1986 publication, so this could be what is listed as the 1987 edition, or the game submitter claimed that this version isn't even listed with SJGames on their 'Everything' page.
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Andrew Walters
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
As an Ogre player from 1977, Ogre Designer's Edition should be given a separate entry. By combining elements from Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave, and some previously unpublished material (Vulcans in the board game, SHVYs with record sheets, size-based ramming rules, the Ninja) it would be a different thing than has been published before even if the components were similar.

Setting production values entirely aside, to get the same contents as Ogre DE you'd need Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave, adaptations of some of the rules from Ogre Miniatures, some of the rules (if not the maps) from Ogre Battlefields, plus some optional stuff that's grown up along the way. Ogre DE is a combination of previously published games, *and* a revision of the rules (a few of them), *and* additional material. It would be a little absurd to say it's the same thing as any existing edition of Ogre.

If the four editions of Cosmic Encounter are all different entries, if the new and old Thunderbolt Apache Leader are different entries, then Ogre DE needs its own entry to be consistent.


Nevermind.
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Karl Gallagher
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
I'm opposed to splitting. This isn't a simple database entry, it's a mini-forum that collects discussion, pictures, files, etc. Dividing that will produce less conversation and weaken the community.
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Stefan D
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
Is it the same game... Yes

I think that answers the question.

Component upgrades or whatever shouldn't split an entry... the game is the game is the game. it is simply a different version.

Same thing with that bloody puerto rico anniversary edition.
unless the 2 games are significantly different in the rules and way it is played (recently balloon cup and pinata) then it isnt even a discussion point.
 
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Simon Lundström
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Re: Seeking opinions of Ogre players on possible separate entry
selenite wrote:
I'm opposed to splitting. This isn't a simple database entry, it's a mini-forum that collects discussion, pictures, files, etc. Dividing that will produce less conversation and weaken the community.


THIS. A hundred thousand times.

It's not (or should not be) a question of whether the contents of the game is identical to previous editions. It's a question of whether this is "Ogre" and can be discussed on the same premises.

As said, this is not just a name of the edition, the "Ogre" entry is the forum for Ogre information. Splitting this into several parts is just destructive.

Edit: And yes, I want this to go with all games. ALL games. And I know, Skelebone, that that discussion shouldn't be held here. And you also know I will speak up _every time_ I get the chance. Splitting entries and keeping entries split is destructive. Don't destroy more.
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