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Subject: Production rss

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jay cutler
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there is no clear rule of placement. If a player places on a tile, the second place on that tile must be 2 workers. if I want to place workers still have to place 3 (1 more than the previous placement), or 4 workers (1 more than the total of the workers present)?
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John Bradshaw
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bodybuilder wrote:
there is no clear rule of placement. If a player places on a tile, the second place on that tile must be 2 workers. if I want to place workers still have to place 3 (1 more than the previous placement), or 4 workers (1 more than the total of the workers present)?


The rule is well explained - Page 5 - with examples.

In your scenario the first player uses 1 worker, 2nd player uses 2 and the third player would use 3 to produce on same tile. No further production can happen as there is now a maximum of 6 workers on the tile.

If the first player uses 3 workers to produce, no other player can use the tile as the next player would have to play 4 and this would go beyond the limit of 6 per tile.
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jay cutler
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so its not like the auction must always be 1 more than the number present .. in production, if the second placement is 2 workers and the total on the tile is 3 workers, 3 workers still enough for me to use the tile? sure?
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Kim Williams
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bodybuilder wrote:
so its not like the auction must always be 1 more than the number present .. in production, if the second placement is 2 workers and the total on the tile is 3 workers, 3 workers still enough for me to use the tile? sure?


Yes, it's one more worker than the previous activation, not one more than the total on the tile.

Also it's worth noting that the first use does not have to be 1 worker. If you use two workers, then that will only allow one other person to use it (as they'd need to put three, and the next would have to add 4 which would break the 6 workers maximum allowed on a tile). Equally you could have the first use be three workers, and thus block any further use of the tile.
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jay cutler
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Ok thanks a lot
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The Dave
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bodybuilder wrote:
so its not like the auction must always be 1 more than the number present .. in production, if the second placement is 2 workers and the total on the tile is 3 workers, 3 workers still enough for me to use the tile? sure?


The auction isn't one more than the number present, by the way! It's one more than the current high bidder.

Example: if Aaron has bid two blue workers and Bob has bid three blue workers, Carl only needs to bid four blue workers, not six.
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jay cutler
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I'm sorry, but many players there is hard to remember how many times you have activated a tile! if there are 3 workers on a tile, you might not remember if the card has been activated once with 3 workers (and therefore one can not activate because it would take 4 workers, so coming to 7), or if you have activated 2 times (first with one and then with 2 workers, so it takes only 3 workers in order to activate).
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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There's a difference between tile activation and bidding in an auction. You can only have a total of six workers on a tile. So if someone puts three on a tile as one action, then no one else can be on that tile. There is no such limit for bidding for a tile.
 
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Rob Steward
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jschlickbernd wrote:
There's a difference between tile activation and bidding in an auction. You can only have a total of six workers on a tile. So if someone puts three on a tile as one action, then no one else can be on that tile. There is no such limit for bidding for a tile.


I think he actually has a point, though it's a little subtle (and from my experience playing, probably a very rare occurrence).

Here's the issue: If all you know is that there are three workers on a tile--and you can't remember if those workers came from two different players using the tile two different times, or just one player placing three workers at once--then you won't know if you can use the tile again or not.

In my experience (three whole games!), we have yet to see someone place three workers simultaneously on a tile to use it. I can certainly see ways that it could happen, though... and my feeling is that those situations would be unusual enough that the players would take note of it and realize that the tile can't be used again. (Since using the tile would require placing 4 workers, leading to 7 total on the tile, which is illegal.)

My suggestion... if someone places 3 workers on a tile simultaneously, lay them down as an indication that work is done at that tile for the rest of the season.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Um that's simply not true. If there are three workers on a tile it doesn't matter how they got there no more can be put on the tile.
 
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Wayne Louvier
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Um that's simply not true. If there are three workers on a tile it doesn't matter how they got there no more can be put on the tile.


Sorry Jennifer, it definitely matters how they got there. If the first player plays 1 worker, then the second player may play 2. With three now on the tile, a third player can still play 3 more for a third and final activation reaching the maximum 6 workers. But if a player places 3 workers initially, no more may be played, since he/she would need to play more than the last player which would be 4 workers, but that would exceed the 6 maximum. The rules describe these specific examples.

Other examples are where a player plays 2 the first time, leaving only one more activation requiring 3 workers.

There are many tactical reason for doing these plays, mostly to preclude another player from benefiting from the tile and possibly getting some obscene final scoring.
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The Dave
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Um that's simply not true. If there are three workers on a tile it doesn't matter how they got there no more can be put on the tile.


I think you have misunderstood the rules, the post, or both. If Player A places one worker on a tile, Player B places two workers on the tile, then Player C MAY place 3 more workers to activate the tile yet again.

If player A places 3 workers then no one else may place more.
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Rob Steward
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Um that's simply not true. If there are three workers on a tile it doesn't matter how they got there no more can be put on the tile.

Not sure where we're getting mixed up here. It sounds like you have a different understanding of the rule than me, but I'm not at all sure.

Here's my understanding...

Normally, the first player to use a tile places 1 worker on it.

Then, normally, the second player to use a tile places 2 additional workers on it, for a total of 3 workers now on the tile.

Then, normally, the third use of the tile requires 3 additional workers to be placed on the tile, for a total of 6.

Six workers on a tile is the maximum. Here's the relevant image from the rulebook, page 5:



The rulebook goes on to state this

Keyflower rulebook wrote:
A player may use more workers than are required... Each use of a tile requires at least one more worker than the previous use. Therefore if the initial usage is 2 workers, not 1 worker, then the next usage will cost a minimum of 3 workers. In this instance the tile cannot be used for a third time in that season as the maximum number of workers allowed on a tile in one season is 6. If the initial usage is 3 or more workers, then no further use can be made of the tile that season.


So, I think there is a difference between whether the 3 workers got there as a single action or over the course of 2 separate actions. In the first case, the next placement would require an (illegal) 4 additional workers... while in the second case, only 3 additional workers would be required.

If I'm out to lunch here, I hope someone will straighten me out!
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John Bradshaw
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DigitalMan wrote:
So, I think there is a difference between whether the 3 workers got there as a single action or over the course of 2 separate actions.


That's correct.

There's a very easy way to deal with this. When you place your workers on the tile for production, keep them grouped (ie keep 2 or 3 meeples pressed together by their flat face) That way it's very easy to see that the 3 workers on the tile are the result of a single production action, (because all 3 meeples are grouped together), OR the 3 workers are the result of two production actions (because 2 are grouped and the other is standing on it's own.) In the first case, no further workers can be placed, in the second case a group of 3 workers could be placed for a third production action.

I've played this game at least 8 times, with varying numbers of players and not once has there ever been the slightest confusion about whether 3 workers on a tile was the result of either one or two production actions.

Great game - enjoy!
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Jake Waltier
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bodybuilder wrote:
I'm sorry, but many players there is hard to remember how many times you have activated a tile! if there are 3 workers on a tile, you might not remember if the card has been activated once with 3 workers (and therefore one can not activate because it would take 4 workers, so coming to 7), or if you have activated 2 times (first with one and then with 2 workers, so it takes only 3 workers in order to activate).

Put your workers together. 1 worker standing next to 2 workers together is different from 3 workers together. I've played several times, everyone has done this without thinking, and confusion has literally never occurred.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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You can't have more than six on a tile. So it doesn't matter. You always have to put more than the existing number on the tile, but the tile can't have more than six. So 1+2+3 is fine, 2+3 is fine, 1+3 is fine, 3+0 is fine. In none of those cases can you add more. Conversely if you reverse the order, none of them work except 0+3. I cannot figure out why you would need to track who put what down.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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DigitalMan wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
Um that's simply not true. If there are three workers on a tile it doesn't matter how they got there no more can be put on the tile.

Not sure where we're getting mixed up here. It sounds like you have a different understanding of the rule than me, but I'm not at all sure.

Here's my understanding...

Normally, the first player to use a tile places 1 worker on it.

Then, normally, the second player to use a tile places 2 additional workers on it, for a total of 3 workers now on the tile.

Then, normally, the third use of the tile requires 3 additional workers to be placed on the tile, for a total of 6.

Six workers on a tile is the maximum. Here's the relevant image from the rulebook, page 5:



The rulebook goes on to state this

Keyflower rulebook wrote:
A player may use more workers than are required... Each use of a tile requires at least one more worker than the previous use. Therefore if the initial usage is 2 workers, not 1 worker, then the next usage will cost a minimum of 3 workers. In this instance the tile cannot be used for a third time in that season as the maximum number of workers allowed on a tile in one season is 6. If the initial usage is 3 or more workers, then no further use can be made of the tile that season.


So, I think there is a difference between whether the 3 workers got there as a single action or over the course of 2 separate actions. In the first case, the next placement would require an (illegal) 4 additional workers... while in the second case, only 3 additional workers would be required.

If I'm out to lunch here, I hope someone will straighten me out!


In both cases 4 would be required and couldn't be done. 'Each use of a tile costs more than the previous one'.
 
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Rob Steward
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jschlickbernd wrote:
DigitalMan wrote:
Keyflower rulebook wrote:
A player may use more workers than are required... Each use of a tile requires at least one more worker than the previous use. Therefore if the initial usage is 2 workers, not 1 worker, then the next usage will cost a minimum of 3 workers. In this instance the tile cannot be used for a third time in that season as the maximum number of workers allowed on a tile in one season is 6. If the initial usage is 3 or more workers, then no further use can be made of the tile that season.


So, I think there is a difference between whether the 3 workers got there as a single action or over the course of 2 separate actions. In the first case, the next placement would require an (illegal) 4 additional workers... while in the second case, only 3 additional workers would be required.

In both cases 4 would be required and couldn't be done. 'Each use of a tile costs more than the previous one'.

If that's true, how could a tile ever be used a third time (which the rules clearly state is possible)?

Use 1: add 1 meeple for a total of 1.
Use 2: add 2 meeples for a total of 3.
Use 3: add 3 meeples (not 4) for a total of 6.

Here's the section from the manual describing that 3rd use:

 
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Neil Christiansen
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It is clear that it is one more than the previous placement, not total on the hex.

As per the example and how it was taught to me at Essen by designer.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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If you needed to separate the meeples on tiles, Richard would have mentioned that in the rules. It's not mentioned in the rules so I will stick with my interpretation of the rules. People can play as they want of course, and also both Richard and Sebastian are on BGG, so someone can send a geekmail to one or both of them to figure it out.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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This statement:
jschlickbernd wrote:
You always have to put more than the existing number on the tile, but the tile can't have more than six.

appears to contradict this one:
jschlickbernd wrote:
So 1+2+3 is fine,

as 3 is not more than the existing number (1+2=3)

Am I misunderstanding something in your post?
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John Bradshaw
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jschlickbernd wrote:
I cannot figure out why you would need to track who put what down.


Because, in the situation where are 3 meeples on the tile, unless it has been tracked in some way, you don't know if you can play 3 meeples there, because 2 players have played 1 and 2 meeples previously, OR whether 1 player has played all 3 meeples, in which case that tile cannot be used again in the current season.

Fortunately, the tracking is no hassle at all - just put meeples down in groups and no problem arises.
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Rob Steward
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jschlickbernd wrote:
If you needed to separate the meeples on tiles, Richard would have mentioned that in the rules. It's not mentioned in the rules so I will stick with my interpretation of the rules. People can play as they want of course, and also both Richard and Sebastian are on BGG, so someone can send a geekmail to one or both of them to figure it out.


Now I'm baffled. The rules (highlighted in the image above) say:

"a player may use a tile for a third time by placing 3 workers",

but it sounds like you're saying:

"a player may not use a tile for a third time because that would require 4 workers".

Unless I'm still misunderstanding you, I do believe you have this one wrong. Hopefully Richard or Sebastian will pop by this thread and give us all vouchers for the next key game. Er, I mean clarify.
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Neil Christiansen
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Except that the rules do explicitly say that you can place 1, then 2, and then 3. No they do not tell you to cluster. But if you did not, how could you tell the difference between 1+2 and 3? We *know* the rules allow for either. And we *know* from the rules that 1, 2, 3 is allowed.

I really don't see the confusion.

You can play any way you want, of course, but if you disallow 1, 2, 3 as placement it is inconsistent with what is printed in the rules.
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John Shepherd
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I can't imagine keyflower being playable unless you tidily group your worker meeples -- I'm sure most people must do it without even realising.

Consider this example:

The first player puts a work party of 1 meeple onto a hex.

The next player adds 2 meeples to the same hex as player 1.

The next player puts a work party of 3 meeples onto a completely different hex.

BUT... everybody was totally sloppy with their meeple placement, and didn't group them. The game now looks like this. One of these hexes now at full capacity -- the other isn't. How can you tell which is which?



Short answer: you can't.

But if people had placed their meeples in tidy groups, the game looks like this... it's perfectly clear which of these hexes can now accept a 3-meeple work party:




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