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Subject: PAD campaign question rss

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Alan Kennedy
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PAD campaign says the following: Gain 1 [Credits] when your turn begins.

Do you have to gain 1 credit every turn? Another way to think about it: is gaining a credit a mandatory element of when your turn begins? The card doesn't use may....

Other cards to consider:
Adonis Campaign
Marked Accounts
Underworld Contact
 
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Brian H
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I believe you have to do what the card says, which is not "MAY gain" one credit.

Question is...why would you not want to?
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Alan Kennedy
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um...so if I forget to do gain one....am I cheating? Do I need to correct game state by gaining one after the fact? Could I gain one after I draw my first card as the corp?
 
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Alan Kennedy
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MavericK96 wrote:
I believe you have to do what the card says, which is not "MAY gain" one credit.

Question is...why would you not want to?


Maybe you wanna to run with 2 credits against a server that has an unrezzed tollbooth?...
 
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Andy Mills
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chemist1981 wrote:
um...so if I forget to do gain one....am I cheating? Do I need to correct game state by gaining one after the fact? Could I gain one after I draw my first card as the corp?


Technically, yes. Forgetting to gain your credit is the same as forgetting to discard at the end of your turn, or something like that. Gaining one after realizing your error is probably the best way to correct this.

The card draw occurs after all "start of turn" effects, per the timing diagram in FAQ 1.1.
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Trevor Schadt
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chemist1981 wrote:
MavericK96 wrote:
I believe you have to do what the card says, which is not "MAY gain" one credit.

Question is...why would you not want to?
Maybe you wanna to run with 2 credits against a server that has an unrezzed tollbooth?...
If you're debating whether to take a credit from a PAD Campaign because you might or might not want to make a Run against a server that might have an unrezzed Tollbooth... you've definitely created an illegal game state somewhere.

Why that is true is left as an exercise to the reader.
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Alan Kennedy
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ryudoowaru wrote:
chemist1981 wrote:
MavericK96 wrote:
I believe you have to do what the card says, which is not "MAY gain" one credit.

Question is...why would you not want to?
Maybe you wanna to run with 2 credits against a server that has an unrezzed tollbooth?...
If you're debating whether to take a credit from a PAD Campaign because you might or might not want to make a Run against a server that might have an unrezzed Tollbooth... you've definitely created an illegal game state somewhere.

Why that is true is left as an exercise to the reader.

I was referring to underworld contracts.... guess that wasn't clear.
 
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Lawcomic
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It's an interesting question. I think the rules as written would require you to take the credit, as there is no "may" or other qualifier.

If you fail to do so, is it cheating? Probably so.

What would happen if this came up in a tournament? Well, I don't know. If caught immediately, it could be corrected. But if a turn had gone by, I am not sure how it would be dealt with...
 
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Aaron Morgan
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chemist1981 wrote:
um...so if I forget to do gain one....am I cheating? Do I need to correct game state by gaining one after the fact? Could I gain one after I draw my first card as the corp?


You do it at the start of your turn, before drawing. If you honestly forgot until after drawing, I think most players would let you correct the game state, unless forgetting it became a regular occurrance.

In a tournament environment, the rules are going to be more strict.
 
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Brian H
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Interesting notion, I guess, because Aesop's Pawnshop is your only real way to trash resources, but in this case you wouldn't want to gain the 3 credits.
 
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Derrick Billings
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as I understand it, if an illegal game state exists, you correct it as best you can without altering the outcome of subsequent dependencies that have gone by. For example, in "A Game of Thrones" card game, you can't "forget" things like Renown. The power token that character earned by winning the challenge is there whether you remember to place a counter on it or not. So, just correct the oversight since it's not likely to have been a factor in any subsequent iteration of the game state.

Likewise, a player can't "forget" to draw from R&D at the start of the Corp turn, or forget to receive a Credit from Underworld Contacts. If you've bounced off a Tollboth in the meantime, though, that would be a dependency on the game state so you consider the credit lost if you'd moved on from the runner's turn.
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Derrick Billings
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MavericK96 wrote:
Interesting notion, I guess, because Aesop's Pawnshop is your only real way to trash resources, but in this case you wouldn't want to gain the 3 credits.


Selling an Underworld Contact to the Pawnshop? Man, that kind of unfortunate implication takes me back to Thunderstone, where everyone eagerly turned in their starting Militia to the Pawnbroker for 2 gold...
 
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David Jensen
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If you forget to draw your credit, you don't get the credit. I think that settles it for me.

 
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Alan Kennedy
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notyetsuperman wrote:
If you forget to draw your credit, you don't get the credit. I think that settles it for me.



That would work it the card said you may gain 1 credit....
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Andy Mills
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It's contingent on BOTH players to maintain a legal game state.

In the tournament that I am TOing, here's how I will do it:

First forgetting: correct the situation; take the credit.
Second forgetting: warning to both players; take the credit.
Third forgetting: game loss to Corp player.
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Ben Asher
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If I were playing corp and a runner at my table 'forgot' to take a credit from underworld contact, then ran into my tollbooth, and was thus able to skip the toll, I'd probably first ask to back up the game state and ask for a TO if the player didn't agree.

If the forgetful player recalls that they forgot the credit during their turn and before any game state occurred that the forgotten credit(s) would have changed, I'm happy to let them get their credits as long as it isn't a constantly repeated problem. However, if they've ended their turn, it's too late.
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Fiend Fellow
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Responding to the Tollbooth question of passing by with 2 credits -

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/netrunner/android-netrun...

Having 2 credits isn't even a legitimate strategy for Tollbooth. If don't have 2 credits, you don't even really encounter the ice with the option to break subroutines, it just ends the run (to the frustration of runners everywhere). The fact that the runner can't use any money from Cyberfeeders or The Toolbox or similar cards to pay for this toll makes the card all the more beneficial to the corp.

Forgetting to take credits therefore doesn't really aid you in any way towards getting past Tollbooth.

 
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Ben Asher
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Fiendofthenorth wrote:
Responding to the Tollbooth question of passing by with 2 credits -

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/netrunner/android-netrun...

Having 2 credits isn't even a legitimate strategy for Tollbooth. If don't have 2 credits, you don't even really encounter the ice with the option to break subroutines, it just ends the run (to the frustration of runners everywhere). The fact that the runner can't use any money from Cyberfeeders or The Toolbox or similar cards to pay for this toll makes the card all the more beneficial to the corp.

Forgetting to take credits therefore doesn't really aid you in any way towards getting past Tollbooth.

It's not a matter of getting past tollbooth, it's that now the corp has spent 8 to rez an ICE that did nothing except ETR. Tollbooth is good because it usually comes with some teeth, you can't just bounce off it harmlessly -- unless you have less than 3 credits.
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Andrew Lieffring
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beelzeben wrote:

It's not a matter of getting past tollbooth, it's that now the corp has spent 8 to rez an ICE that did nothing except ETR. Tollbooth is good because it usually comes with some teeth, you can't just bounce off it harmlessly -- unless you have less than 3 credits.


A tollbooth that ends one run without costing the runner anything, and then later costs the runner almost as much to get through as it did to rez is still a really amazing investment.
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Frank Brooks
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beelzeben wrote:
Fiendofthenorth wrote:
Responding to the Tollbooth question of passing by with 2 credits -

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/netrunner/android-netrun...

Having 2 credits isn't even a legitimate strategy for Tollbooth. If don't have 2 credits, you don't even really encounter the ice with the option to break subroutines, it just ends the run (to the frustration of runners everywhere). The fact that the runner can't use any money from Cyberfeeders or The Toolbox or similar cards to pay for this toll makes the card all the more beneficial to the corp.

Forgetting to take credits therefore doesn't really aid you in any way towards getting past Tollbooth.

It's not a matter of getting past tollbooth, it's that now the corp has spent 8 to rez an ICE that did nothing except ETR. Tollbooth is good because it usually comes with some teeth, you can't just bounce off it harmlessly -- unless you have less than 3 credits.


Like Ben said, it is actually better to have 2 than 3 since you didn't lose anything with only 2 in hand. So by "forgetting" to gain your credit you are actually saving 2 instead of losing 1.

By the way, if you could spend Cyberfeeder or Toolbox credits to pay for the Tollbooth toll, it actually would help the corp since if they were spending those credits, they probably can't afford to break it too.

EDIT:
IncompleteUserNa wrote:
beelzeben wrote:

It's not a matter of getting past tollbooth, it's that now the corp has spent 8 to rez an ICE that did nothing except ETR. Tollbooth is good because it usually comes with some teeth, you can't just bounce off it harmlessly -- unless you have less than 3 credits.


A tollbooth that ends one run without costing the runner anything, and then later costs the runner almost as much to get through as it did to rez is still a really amazing investment.


But a Tollbooth that only cost the runner a Parasite and 2 credits is not such a good investment. Of course you stopped them from running that server for a little bit, but I'm sure they would do something else in the mean time.
 
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Ben Asher
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I'm not saying tollbooth is bad. I'm saying that if you 'forgot' to take your credit off underworld contact and then were able to run my tollbooth without consequence as a result, I'd call foul play.
 
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Steve
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chemist1981 wrote:
I was referring to underworld contracts....


Happy hour doesn't start for a while, but what the hell.
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Ben Asher
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BoShek wrote:
But a Tollbooth that only cost the runner a Parasite and 2 credits is not such a good investment. Of course you stopped them from running that server for a little bit, but I'm sure they would do something else in the mean time.

This. Or a tollbooth that can now be derezzed with emergency shutdown. The runner is smart to find your tollbooth with only two credits. But if they do so by forgetting to take one that is mandatory, it's cheating.
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Tunguska's CPA
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beelzeben wrote:
I'm not saying tollbooth is bad. I'm saying that if you 'forgot' to take your credit off underworld contact and then were able to run my tollbooth without consequence as a result, I'd call foul play.


If I knew that my opponent had an underworld contracts and forgot to get the income from it, I'd remind him during the run and tell him to lose the $2 he had, the $1 he should have gained, and call it even.

I'm not going to remind my opponent's how to play, but in a situation like that I wouldn't let it slide.

Maybe it's playing it both ways, but forgetting to benefit yourself is one thing (Pad campaign) and forgetting to benefit me is another.

/For equality's sake, if a corp forgot to take income off Adonis or Pad Campaign before I used Account Siphon, I'd remind him to.


EDIT: I also think it's important to separate "aw snap, I forgot my BoT income, sorry!" and "BWA HA HA HA! Take that, Corporation! I "forgot" my income!" I've forgotten about everything there is to forget in this game and not once has it been on purpose.

The growing list of things I've forgotten include:
Recurring credits
Kate's discount
Gabe's HQ-run income
Any number of BoT virus tokens
Pad/Adonis campaign
J:RP run on a central server before a remote
etc
 
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Ben Asher
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It sounds like you're saying exactly what I am:
beelzeben wrote:
If I were playing corp and a runner at my table 'forgot' to take a credit from underworld contact, then ran into my tollbooth, and was thus able to skip the toll, I'd probably first ask to back up the game state and ask for a TO if the player didn't agree.


"Back up the game state" here means they take the credit, before encountering the tollbooth.
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