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Subject: Lack of Rules rss

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GeekInsight
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Does this worry anyone else?

Here is where I am on this project. I love the idea of a fully cooperative story adventure game. Myth seems to be hitting all the notes I'd love in a game like this - and you can't argue with the components. But, without posting up the rules, I find it hard to justify dropping the $100 necessary to get all the goodies. If I can't read the rules, it makes me a little suspicious of gameplay. Besides, I know I can be picky. So it's hard to justify that kind of expense sight unseen.

Now, normally I'd be content to wait until it was published and then just buy a retail copy. Easy peasy. But there are two things stopping me. First, buying just the base game when I could get so much more is prohibitive. And, even worse, there are several Kickstarter exclusives. Since I tend to be a completionist, if I don't get it now, I know that I likely never will. A retail Myth means I'm basically purchasing a long series of chores in trying to track down various exclusives.

Hence my quandary. Do you find the lack of rules troubling? Or are you willing to take a chance on the game based on what has bled through in the videos?
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mark guckeyson
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Well, the snarky response is there are apparently 1,936 folks who are willing to risk it. To the tune of $300,000. So... yeah.

The less snarky bit is that while I'd like to see the rules, I don't think it's going to do anything to *detract* from my current impression. I definitely don't see it being a big risk of $100, at least.

And the wildly cynical part of me feels confident I could resell all the extra bits in the unlikely case I don't thoroughly enjoy it.
 
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Tom H
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I'm not troubled, though it isn't ideal.

Through their videos MERCS have done a good job of showing how the game plays. Even more importantly: as a full co-op game any (hypothetical) rules ambiguities are much easier to play around.
 
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Chris Smith
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I think enough has been shown off in the video's to trust there is working rules.

I am a bit concerned that it may be due to complexity or something though, trying not to scare off buyers with an overlong rulebook. I only say as I can't see any excuse otherwise not to want people to see it.

We don't need a complete rulebook with art! Whatever it being used for the gameplay video would be good enough..=P
 
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Daniel Drickman
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Smoothsmith wrote:
I only say as I can't see any excuse otherwise not to want people to see it.


Probably because there is no upside to releasing an unpolished rulebook. Most of the top funded projects did not have rule books either and didn't hurt them. Regardless of how good or bad the rules are, they would likely lose more backers who may realize the game is not for them (or as you say more complex then they wanted) than gain backers for putting out the rules.
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I think it would probably shock people at how unfinished the rulebooks of most KS projects probably are and that's why most of them don't release them.

Let's be honest, the rulebook is probably a .docx sitting on Brian's laptop and hasn't been professionally organized, edited, proofread, etc. If they released it as is people would view it as a hack when in reality it's exactly where it should be at this stage of development... i.e. under development. Kickstarter isn't for completely finished products -- that would be the retail market. I'm almost certain there isn't a finalized rulebook to actually release.

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Michael Callahan
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No need to release it,.... I like your reasoning
If you've watched the videos you've seen the rules
 
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Dolem Thorn
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MERCS did confirm in the Kickstarter comments that they would release the rules as a PDF to all backers in June. I know that doesn't help right now, but it probably does tell you about what stage the rules are in, and that they are confident enough to release them early.
 
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Selwyn Hope
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Despite the rules, despite the lack of basic attacks characters can do, as well as numerous other issues, the fact remains for $100 you get a heap of decent looking miniatures.

Assuming we don't get burned on the quality of these figures you can just take them and make up your own game and you are still ahead due to the cost of just buying figures.

That's the reason I eventually got on board.
 
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Personally I'm not seeing the need to release the rule book, the videos of both playthroughs and individual classes have shown how a lot of the mechanics intend to work in a reasonable amount of detail.
Given a lot of the gameplay emerges from the class/darkness/quest decks, without those as well you wouldn't get a good feel for the game from the rules alone.
I certainly won't object if they do release them of course, I just don't feel they have a need to at this point with everything they've shown so far.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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This comes up on nearly every single kickstarter. A lot of the time I feel that things are being purposefully hidden, and Sedition Wars and Zombicide both spring to mind as kickstarters where elements of the rules (or the entire rules) were kept secret. In both of those cases I felt it was because the designers knew the rules weren't great.

I don't feel like anything is being kept hidden in Myth. The designers have been really open about how things work. They have shown in excruciating detail how each hero class works, how the darkness board works... There have been seven playthrough videos that give a very good indication of how it all hangs together. In fact, as far as I am concerned, this has been the most open and honest kickstarter I have seen, and probably the first one I will back (I have been very against the kickstarter idea in the past specifically because of the lack of details many companies have provided about their products).

MERCs seem to spend a lot of time talking about the GAME, whereas other kickstarters seem to spend a lot of time waving fancy miniatures around going "it doesn't matter if the game sucks because of these great toys."
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Michelle
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
This comes up on nearly every single kickstarter. A lot of the time I feel that things are being purposefully hidden, and Sedition Wars and Zombicide both spring to mind as kickstarters where elements of the rules (or the entire rules) were kept secret. In both of those cases I felt it was because the designers knew the rules weren't great.

I don't feel like anything is being kept hidden in Myth. The designers have been really open about how things work. They have shown in excruciating detail how each hero class works, how the darkness board works... There have been seven playthrough videos that give a very good indication of how it all hangs together. In fact, as far as I am concerned, this has been the most open and honest kickstarter I have seen, and probably the first one I will back (I have been very against the kickstarter idea in the past specifically because of the lack of details many companies have provided about their products).

MERCs seem to spend a lot of time talking about the GAME, whereas other kickstarters seem to spend a lot of time waving fancy miniatures around going "it doesn't matter if the game sucks because of these great toys."


I agree with every word of this. This is NOT a project like kingdom death or the first zombicide, where they basically try to hide the rules from you because they either aren't developed or aren't any good. MERCS has furnished a ton of info on the rules. The rules exist, and they seem to work well. MERCS has furnished answers for pretty much every rules question people have asked. The MERCS guys are professionals. I'm 100% confident that the reason for the lack of rulebook is purely because the rules are not cleaned-up enough to present to the public, and probably won't be until they get a technical writer/proofreader/editor or whatever onboard.
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Seba J
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so you wanna say that...



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Chad Caughmann
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MyParadox wrote:
buying just the base game when I could get so much more is prohibitive. And, even worse, there are several Kickstarter exclusives.


This is the nature of Kickstarter. The developer is asking for your trust in their product to help fund their core idea. If they can surpass their goal, they want to offer incentives for more funding so they can expand on that core idea.

As others have stated, the company is being much more upfront about the rules than any of the other, successful, comparable games that have come to Kickstarter before it. They may not have a pdf rule book available, but I wouldn't expect them to for a Kickstarter. They HAVE posted a butt-load of gameplay videos, explaining how lots of things work...and that's more than most Kickstarter games do.

The only person who's going to be able to justify spending $100 to get in on this is yourself. You've have your own reasons for doing it or not...but don't use the excuse of a lack of rules, because Myth has been far from that, compared to other successful Kickstarters games.
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Timothy 'Peachy' Devery
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I tend to agree with others on this one. The gameplay videos helped alleviate a lot of suspicion. Of course there could always be more details, but I have a decent understanding of how the game works, and I like what I've seen.

As for exclusives, as far as I can tell, there are only two items that will be unavailable after the KickStarter is through: The mini-boss and Trickster. While a much, much better deal to get everything through this channel, most of the extras will be purchasable at some point.
 
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mark guckeyson
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There are three exclusives so far... Trickster, Captain pledge mini-boss (Razorfiend) and the $80K stretch goal mini-boss (R.O.U.S.). Other than that, I agree. Actually, I think the Trickster may come back to haunt them if things get rolling in the next couple of years, but I imagine that's a good problem to face.
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Michelle
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I can actually condense my reply above into a single sentence:

There is a lack of a rulebook, not a lack of rules.
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Patrick Stangier
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MyParadox wrote:
Do you find the lack of rules troubling?

Absolutely not, for the following reasons.

1) The lack of a rulebook is not the same as a lack of rules.
Just because you can not read them does not mean they do not exist. The hours of video gameplay do not appear to be made up on the fly, so there seem to be rules.

2) Even with a rulebook available we could not judge if MYTH is a good game.
MYTH relies heavily on several card decks (hero decks, quest deck, treasure deck, darkness deck). Without knowing these decks we are not able to determine if MYTH has a balanced and good gameplay.

3) MERCS are (so far) a miniature game company.
In contrast to board games the (full) rules for miniature games are seldom freely published. So making the rules available is simply not in their nature.

4) There is only a single exclusive that can not be easily proxied (the Trickster hero).
Should I deceide to feel unsure about the game I could easily wait for the normal release and would only miss a minimal amount of gameplay.

So no, I am not feeling troubled at all.

RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
A lot of the time I feel that things are being purposefully hidden, and Sedition Wars and Zombicide both spring to mind as kickstarters where elements of the rules (or the entire rules) were kept secret. In both of those cases I felt it was because the designers knew the rules weren't great.

Do you mean the Sedition Wars where the game designer answered nearly every question asked about the rules during the Kickstarter here on BGG or is there another game with the same name that I know nothing of?
And Zombicide had gameplay videos which showed nearly all the rules.

Neither of those games have hidden stuff and I do not think the designers felt their games where not good.
For me Zombicide and Sedition Wars turned out exactly as expected rules wise.
Zombicide was created by former Rackham members, a company known for its badly written (and worsely translated) rules, Sedition Wars was made by people with no board game experience and the publisher for both games is known to fail in its editing duties.
Unsurprisingly Zombicide had badly written rules (which is not the same as bad rules I should point out) and Sedition Wars made all those first timer mistakes (designer blindness) and there were no editors involved who could have fixed this.
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Kevin Outlaw
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Sedition Wars kept its rules actively hidden. That is well documented.

Zombicide relied almost entirely on the miniatures. I realised I wouldn't pledge when a CMON guy in a video who was supposed to be promoting the game said something along the lines of "It doesn't matter if the game isn't great, because you get lots of cool miniatures."

As it turns out, I quite like Zombicide. I even own a copy (a gift from work colleagues - not a kickstarter copy). Doesn't change the fact that they relied a lot on faith and the miniatures to get the success they did.

I really liked the look of Sedition Wars, but I am very glad I didn't get involved in it.

The MERCs guys have been much more open about the game elements than other games I have seen on kickstarter, and that gives me the confidence I lacked in the other games.
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Patrick Stangier
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Sedition Wars kept its rules actively hidden. That is well documented.

The MERCs guys have been much more open about the game elements than other games I have seen on kickstarter, and that gives me the confidence I lacked in the other games.

Is that really so? I mean posts like this hardly look like hiding rules. To me MERCS are no more open about the game rules for MYTH than Rob Baxter was about the rules of Sedition Wars, however they have the benefit of there not being a struggle between publisher (CMON), creative department (Studio McVey) and rules designer (Rob Baxter) on how to handle stuff.

RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Zombicide relied almost entirely on the miniatures. ... Doesn't change the fact that they relied a lot on faith and the miniatures to get the success they did.

But is that not how most successful Kickstarters for games are run: Faith, Hype and lots of Eyecandy?

But seriously, if you want to do me a favor go and watch the Zombicide Gameplay Introduction that was available during the Kickstarter and tell me how many vital Zombicide rules you think you are still missing after that 7 minute video.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Bewulf wrote:
But is that not how most successful Kickstarters for games are run: Faith, Hype and lots of Eyecandy?



Yes - that's my point. Most kickstarters are run by waving miniatures around (well, renders of the miniatures that are twice as good as what you will actually get... Zombicide!). I don't think that's right, and that's why I have never backed. MERCs are handling things differently, and being far more open. The few posts about the Sedition Wars rules doesn't even remotely compare to the level of depth MERCs have provided.

You are clearly happy with your purchases, which is good for you; if I had bought a game that was full of first-timer mistakes due to designer blindness and conflicts within the company, with rules that are full of mistakes due to failures at the editing stage, I wouldn't be.

EDIT: I did want to add, I only mentioned Sedition Wars and Zombicide as two examples because they were games that interested me in the early stages; they are not the only examples. I also do have concerns about Myth. Some of the elements still seem a bit loosey-goosey to me, and I don't like how some of the stretch goals seem to be designed to encourage you to buy more add-ons. But no kickstarter is perfect, and this one to me just seems to have done enough to change my opinion of kickstarters (which was previously to never ever back ever ever ever). So I guess they have done something right, in my eyes.
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Chris Smith
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Availability of rules and information on them is what I like about Teramyyd: Earthsphere at the moment. They have a copy of early quick-start rules they had together that reveal a large amount about the mechanics of the game.

It's all still in flux as they're still making changes & there's going to be a beta to improve the rules further (Which I'm taking part in, I love such an opportunity to improve a game). They've also said they're hoping to make a more full set of the rules available before the end of their ks, =)

Sadly, I do get the impression that the small quantity of mini's included (Despite being quite large and not the point...the gameplay is the important bit) is stopping them from flying too high.

My biggest contributed kickstarter so far is Zombicide: Season Two. The advantage it's had is that I own the original and know how the rules work, and I'm happy with them. I also know most of the extra rules and bits they're adding, so I'm confident I'll enjoy it it!
 
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Patrick Stangier
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
You are clearly happy with your purchases, which is good for you; if I had bought a game that was full of first-timer mistakes due to designer blindness and conflicts within the company, with rules that are full of mistakes due to failures at the editing stage, I wouldn't be.

"Happy" is maybe a bit too strong. Let's say I am ... content ... with my purchases. But then why should I not be, considering that both games turned out as I expected?

For me crowdfunding has a lot to do with managing expectations. If in doubt expect the worst. Balance that with the things you know and then deceide to back or not.
Oh and always be aware that a project can just vanish taking all the money spent on it down the drain with no reward or compensation (But hey, if I need money so badly that I can not afford the loss I should not be spending it on board games anyway).
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Kevin Outlaw
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Bewulf wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
You are clearly happy with your purchases, which is good for you; if I had bought a game that was full of first-timer mistakes due to designer blindness and conflicts within the company, with rules that are full of mistakes due to failures at the editing stage, I wouldn't be.

"Happy" is maybe a bit too strong. Let's say I am ... content ... with my purchases. But then why should I not be, considering that both games turned out as I expected?

For me crowdfunding has a lot to do with managing expectations. If in doubt expect the worst. Balance that with the things you know and then deceide to back or not.
Oh and always be aware that a project can just vanish taking all the money spent on it down the drain with no reward or compensation (But hey, if I need money so badly that I can not afford the loss I should not be spending it on board games anyway).


All really good points. I think some people forget that as this is an investment (not a preorder) things can go wrong. Another reason why I have always been reluctant. I just think there is enough going on here to make me confident that (a) a game will be produced, and (b) it will be at least moderately good.

However, I don't agree that "affording the loss" is the same as spending free cash on board games. If I put money down and get nothing for it, I am going to be considerably more annoyed than putting down money for something that I get but turns out to be a bit rubbish. At least you can sell rubbish.
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Jonah Rees
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Bewulf wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
You are clearly happy with your purchases, which is good for you; if I had bought a game that was full of first-timer mistakes due to designer blindness and conflicts within the company, with rules that are full of mistakes due to failures at the editing stage, I wouldn't be.

"Happy" is maybe a bit too strong. Let's say I am ... content ... with my purchases. But then why should I not be, considering that both games turned out as I expected?

For me crowdfunding has a lot to do with managing expectations. If in doubt expect the worst. Balance that with the things you know and then deceide to back or not.
Oh and always be aware that a project can just vanish taking all the money spent on it down the drain with no reward or compensation (But hey, if I need money so badly that I can not afford the loss I should not be spending it on board games anyway).


All really good points. I think some people forget that as this is an investment (not a preorder) things can go wrong. Another reason why I have always been reluctant. I just think there is enough going on here to make me confident that (a) a game will be produced, and (b) it will be at least moderately good.

However, I don't agree that "affording the loss" is the same as spending free cash on board games. If I put money down and get nothing for it, I am going to be considerably more annoyed than putting down money for something that I get but turns out to be a bit rubbish. At least you can sell rubbish.


Agreed. I can afford to spend some of my money on toy soldiers or computer games etc. and if they turn out to be not very good well so be it, at least I still have them. If I throw away £80+ and get nothing I would be very upset.

But I think that is partly down to the way KS is used now. It has become such a popular funding format that even those with virtually complete games (like we see here) or the funds to pay for the tooling of games themselves (i.e. CMON) use it. Personally I don't see anything wrong with this, it is a smart business decision and in many cases does improve even the base games. But there certainly needs to be a management of expectation. That is why I am just going for the Captain level pledge. I think the game looks fantastic and am really looking forward to it but it could turn out to be terrible or I may end up with nobody to play the game with so I am limiting my initial outlay as much as possible.
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