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Subject: Yet Another [b]Pirate Ship[/b] Question rss

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Jonathan C
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Yes, here is another Pirate ship question, but one which after searching the forums, I don't believe has been asked yet.

We played five-player Dominion last night with Seaside and the base set, playing the "Repetition" pre-selected Kingdom cards (Repetition: Caravan, Chancellor, Explorer, Festival, Militia, Outpost, Pearl Diver, Pirate Ship, Treasury, Workshop).

Using a Workshop and buying Pirate ships I was able to acquire most of the stack (6) of these early on in this 5-player game. This question came up as I started amassing my pile of gold coin (and eventually, Provinces):

Upon using Pirate ship as an attack, to cause opponents to reveal the top 2-cards of their deck, may I choose to trash only one player's treasure card, even if multiple players have treasure showing?

Card text:

Pirate Ship wrote:
"Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token"


I rarely ever trashed more than one opponent's treasure card (unless of course multiple players had a silver or gold showing), because I wanted to slow as much as possible the rate of decline of treasures in people's decks, and prolong the usefulness of the attack. Also, it sucks to have copper in your deck, so when I could, I'd leave a player with their coppers, or at least try to distribute somewhat evenly from which opponents I was trashing coppers.

So, the question boils down to this: Is "I choose neither" a valid choice here?

I suspect I broke something or didn't follow the rules properly, because in the end I acquired 61VPs and the next highest score was somewhere in the 30's.
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looleypalooley wrote:
Yes, here is another Pirate ship question, but one which after searching the forums, I don't believe has been asked yet.

We played five-player Dominion last night with Seaside and the base set, playing the "Repetition" pre-selected Kingdom cards (Repetition: Caravan, Chancellor, Explorer, Festival, Militia, Outpost, Pearl Diver, Pirate Ship, Treasury, Workshop).

Using a Workshop and buying Pirate ships I was able to acquire most of the stack (6) of these early on in this 5-player game. This question came up as I started amassing my pile of gold coin (and eventually, Provinces):

Upon using Pirate ship as an attack, to cause opponents to reveal the top 2-cards of their deck, may I choose to trash only one player's treasure card, even if multiple players have treasure showing?

Card text:

Pirate Ship wrote:
"Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token"


I rarely ever trashed more than one opponent's treasure card (unless of course multiple players had a silver or gold showing), because I wanted to slow as much as possible the rate of decline of treasures in people's decks, and prolong the usefulness of the attack. Also, it sucks to have copper in your deck, so when I could, I'd leave a player with their coppers, or at least try to distribute somewhat evenly from which opponents I was trashing coppers.

So, the question boils down to this: Is "I choose neither" a valid choice here?

I suspect I broke something or didn't follow the rules properly, because in the end I acquired 61VPs and the next highest score was somewhere in the 30's.
For each player, you must trash a Treasure if there was one revealed. The wording does not seem to support what you'd like to do. If it did, it'd be more like

Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you may choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token

OR this, but I think the 1st one above is more precise....
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, may trash a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token
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Jonathan C
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ackmondual wrote:
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you may choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token

OR this, but I think the 1st one above is more precise....
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, may trash a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token


I am inclined to agree with you. Your re-wordings of the card text certainly make it clearer, if that is the correct interpretation. But there was a seed of doubt in my mind, because neither the words 'may' nor 'must' were used in the card text.
 
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James Adrian
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Aye, it's like an early Thief; it trashes Copper in the early part of the game but can be useful later on.
The nice thing about Pirate Ship is that you still amass your loot for blasting their Copper.
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Trevin Beattie
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ackmondual wrote:
For each player, you must trash a Treasure if there was one revealed. The wording does not seem to support what you'd like to do. If it did, it'd be more like

Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you may choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token

This wording could be interpreted to mean that the player must trash a Treasure, but you may either choose which one or let that player decide.

ackmondual wrote:
OR this, but I think the 1st one above is more precise....
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, may trash a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token

This wording could be interpreted to mean that you must choose the Treasure, but that player decides whether to trash it or not.

I think a better alternate wording could be: “Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck and may trash a revealed Treasure, your choice. Discard the rest. If anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token.

But that could also be interpreted to mean that you choose whether he trashes a Treasure, but that player chooses which one.

I agree that the original wording is clear: trashing a Treasure is not optional. And it was probably the best way to put it.
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Mark Judd
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looleypalooley wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you may choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token

OR this, but I think the 1st one above is more precise....
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, may trash a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token


I am inclined to agree with you. Your re-wordings of the card text certainly make it clearer, if that is the correct interpretation. But there was a seed of doubt in my mind, because neither the words 'may' nor 'must' were used in the card text.

I'm not aware of a single Dominion card that uses "must" in it's text. "Must" is always implied unless the word "May" is present.

From the Dominion rules text:
Quote:
He announces which card he is playing and follows the instructions written on that card from top to bottom. ...the player must do as much as he can.
Highlighted for emphasis

So when you use Pirate Ship to trash treasure, each other player MUST reveal the top 2 cards of his deck and then MUST trash a revealed treasure that you MUST choose (if they revealed more than one treasure). The only way they do not trash a treasure is if they are unable to, due to not revealing a treasure.
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David desJardins
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"Each other player ... trashes a Treasure" means that each other player does that. Not that they may or may not do it based on your preference.
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Jonathan C
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DaviddesJ wrote:
"Each other player ... trashes a Treasure" means that each other player does that. Not that they may or may not do it based on your preference.


Except the element of the attacking player's preference is explicitly stated in the card text: "you choose".

Beaveman wrote:
I'm not aware of a single Dominion card that uses "must" in it's text. "Must" is always implied unless the word "May" is present.


Another way of looking at it is that the only action that "must" be done, is the attacking player making a choice whether or not to trash each revealed card. If the card is not a treasure, it is ineligible to be trashed. If it is a treasure card, it is a candidate for being trashed.
 
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Mark Judd
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DaviddesJ wrote:
"Each other player ... trashes a Treasure" means that each other player does that. Not that they may or may not do it based on your preference.

If it were possible to choose whether or not to trash an individual's treasure, that would blow the doors wide open for kingmaker possibilities. And Donald X. has mentioned several times that he has tried avoiding cards that could create kingmaker situations. There are some, but very few. And choosing to trash one person's treasure and leave another's would probably be the most influential of any of the kingmaker scenarios that are actually possible right now.

Charlie won last game, and I don't want him to win this game so I will trash his treasure. Jill came in last place last game, and I want to give her the chance to win, so I will let her keep her Gold. Because I let Jill keep her Gold, she is also going to let me keep my treasure, but trash Charlie's treasure.
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David desJardins
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looleypalooley wrote:
Except the element of the attacking player's preference is explicitly stated in the card text: "you choose".


The words "you choose" appear within a restrictive phrase: "that you choose". In English (and similar languages), restrictive phrases narrow, but don't change, the meaning of the terms that they modify. "Each other player ... trashes a Treasure" is the core statement. The restrictive phrase "that you choose" modifies the object of that statement ("Treasure"), telling you something about the treasure to be trashed. But it doesn't change (can't change) the fact of trashing; it doesn't modify or restrict the verb "trash", or the whole statement, but only the object of the statement.
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Mark Judd
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looleypalooley wrote:
Beaveman wrote:
I'm not aware of a single Dominion card that uses "must" in it's text. "Must" is always implied unless the word "May" is present.


Another way of looking at it is that the only action that "must" be done, is the attacking player making a choice whether or not to trash each revealed card. If the card is not a treasure, it is ineligible to be trashed. If it is a treasure card, it is a candidate for being trashed.

Read the rules (and my entire comment) again. The player must do as much as they can.

So the player MUST choose between attempting to trash treasure or gaining coin.
If they choose to trash treasure, the other players MUST reveal two cards.
Then the other players MUST trash a treasure that you MUST choose. If only one card revealed is a treasure, you are forced to choose that one to be trashed. If both cards are treasure, you choose which of the two they trash. Either way, because of the core rules (you must do as much as you can), if a treasure is revealed a treasure must be trashed.

There is no other way to interpret this.
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Matt E
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Beaveman wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
"Each other player ... trashes a Treasure" means that each other player does that. Not that they may or may not do it based on your preference.

If it were possible to choose whether or not to trash an individual's treasure, that would blow the doors wide open for kingmaker possibilities. And Donald X. has mentioned several times that he has tried avoiding cards that could create kingmaker situations. There are some, but very few. And choosing to trash one person's treasure and leave another's would probably be the most influential of any of the kingmaker scenarios that are actually possible right now.]


I think you're exaggerating the issue. There are plenty of Attack cards in Dominion that can be used for kingmaking. Spy, Swindler, Scrying Pool, and Oracle are all examples. It's not a problem because usually the player has a shot at winning and wants to hurt all other players. However, I agree that having Pirate Ship's trashing be optional would create an issue because that basically makes it a targeted attack. If every other player reveals only Copper, you probably only want to trash one player's Copper so that you can get your token without helping every other player. This incentivizes politics and kingmaking.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I'd say Jester has the most potential for king-making.

...

Cannibals capture an traveler on an expedition through their jungle territory and growl at him, "Our custom says you must choose to be killed with fire or with a spear." The explorer chooses not to.
 
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David desJardins
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I don't think the best way to answer the question is to analyze what makes the game best in your opinion. The best way to answer the question is to read the text on the card.
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Roger Horner
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The rules state, "Each player trashes one Treasure card at most, of the attacker's choice from the two revealed cards."

From this it says that the attacker gets to choose which card, but it doesn't imply that he gets to choose if the player does trash a card.
 
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Roberta Yang
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This needs to go in the FAQ:

Q: The card says to do X. Can I do not X?

A: No.

Q: But what if I really want to do not X?

A: No.
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