Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Doom: The Boardgame» Forums » Rules

Subject: AIM order confusion. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After a couple of games, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the AIM 'ready' order.

The way I interpret it, you can move 4 or shoot before putting the aim order token down and then immidiatly remove it to shoot with a reroll.

This then makes it completely better than:

Unload, because you can shoot twice (once before putting the AIM order down, and once using AIM for the reroll)

Advance, because you can move 4 and do an AIM attack for the reroll.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Also, what's the purpose of putting the order down when you can only use it during your turn? Or can you use it on a different turn ala a guard order?

I've gotten a handle on my other questions. Only this one remains.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You're misreading the Aim rules:
Quote:
A marine may discard his aim order to announce that one of
his attacks is an aimed attack. After rolling for the attack, he
may then re-roll some or all of the dice. He must keep the
second result. This order is also discarded immediately if the
marine moves, or if he receives a wound.

Doom Rulebook page 12

You don't discard the Aim token to make another attack, you discard it to make an existing attack an aimed attack. You still have to attack to use Aim, it does not grant you a free attack. Usually, players will choose the Ready action, choose the Aim Order, then choose to attack instead of move and discard the Aim Order to make that attack aimed.

-shnar
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If I'm reading you right, choosing to attack with a 'Ready' will only allow the 1 attack + reroll (and not both as I had been assuming with the wording of what is possible with a 'ready'...

But that still invalidates using 'advance' as an option, because you can do everything that an advance can do, (being moving 4) but with the reroll.....

...correct?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Without the reroll. You can only (normally) receive an Aim order from a Ready action. If you Advance, you won't have an Aim order to place/use on your marine.

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I realize this, but I'm having trouble conceiving of a situation where you would want to advance at all.

If you can move 4 and do an aimed attack with a 'ready' action, then there is never a reason to 'advance'.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Inferno Echelon
msg tools
Advancing lets you move 4 spaces AND attack, but you can't place a order on yourself or any fellow marine (unless a marine card let's you). Advancing lets you close in on a invader before attacking or move in, attack and move away for example.
Ready lets you move OR attack, forcing a compromise. If you want to attack you won't be able to move. If you want to move, you won't be able to attack. Thats why advance is useful, for running and gunning. In my opinion, Doom the Board Game requires for you to keep moving, so being able to both run and fight is a huge advantage.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dangerous Partners
United Kingdom
Swindon
Wiltshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thy who sits on his ass in Doom gets another one ripped.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
roufus wrote:
I realize this, but I'm having trouble conceiving of a situation where you would want to advance at all.

If you can move 4 and do an aimed attack with a 'ready' action, then there is never a reason to 'advance'.

You can't move and attack with Ready, to do that, you must do an Advance. With Ready, you move OR attack and also get an order.

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shnar wrote:
roufus wrote:
I realize this, but I'm having trouble conceiving of a situation where you would want to advance at all.

If you can move 4 and do an aimed attack with a 'ready' action, then there is never a reason to 'advance'.

You can't move and attack with Ready, to do that, you must do an Advance. With Ready, you move OR attack and also get an order.

-shnar


if you can move OR attack with ready, you can move 4 and then use an aim order, correct? That would be the same as moving and attacking, because the 'aim' order IS an attack.

I'm not trying to be purposely dense here, but this is just how I see it. I don't see how an 'aim' order (or guard order for that matter) isn't an attack in its own right.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No, back to what I said in the very first reply. The Aim order is not an attack, you have to have an attack to use an Aim order. It augments an attack, not gives you an additional attack. The quote again is, "A marine may discard his aim order to announce that one of his attacks is an aimed attack." Notice that is it one of his already-existing-attacks, not that he may make an additional attack.

This is why whenever you wish to Aim, you usually do a Ready, then put your aim order on your marine, then make an attack and spend that aim order so you can reroll. You can, if you want, move then put the aim order, but if you take damage, or if you move before attacking, you lose the aim order.

Guard is a separate attack.

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
...so if I'm reading this right, the ONLY thing you can do when you 'ready' an aim attack is stand there and do your aim order?

Therefor... if you move the 4 during the 'move OR attack' you'd basically forfeit it because you wouldn't have an attack to use during your ready action?

If true, that solves the problem.

But is there any time you can discard the aim order other than your turn (like you can with guard orders?) If you can only use it during that exact same turn, I'm not seeing how you'd move/take damage.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but does that mean you can (before moving) put the AIM order down, roll once, be satisfied with the result, and then move 4? (There were multiple occasions in my game group where they would move intending to do something, and then change their mind depending on how the dice went.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Inferno Echelon
msg tools
Yep. If you choose to move when you ready, recieving a aim order wouldnt do any good. You would have no attack to reroll, and the aim order would be discarded when you recieve a wound or start your next turn, whichever happens first. So yes, the aim order is pretty much forfeited.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fabio Calzolari
Italy
S.Lazzaro di Savena
Bologna
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sierraoscaralphapapa wrote:
Yep. If you choose to move when you ready, recieving a aim order wouldnt do any good. You would have no attack to reroll, and the aim order would be discarded when you recieve a wound or start your next turn, whichever happens first. So yes, the aim order is pretty much forfeited.

??
From the book:
"An aim order stays with a marine until discarded by one of the following events:
1) the marine takes 1 or more wounds,
2) the marine moves 1 or more spaces, or
3) the marine discards the order to make an aimed attack.
"
There's no mention of "starting the turn"

Michael, to sommarize:
The aim token just allow you to re-roll dice when attacking.
Discard the token if any of the three events happens.

See it in this way:
With a "Ready", you forfeit either moving or attacking to gain an orange "Order" token, whatever you want. When and how that token is spent/lost is detailed on the token own rules in the rulebook.

roufus wrote:
if you move the 4 during the 'move OR attack' you'd basically forfeit it because you wouldn't have an attack to use during your ready action?

No. In this case, if during the invader turn you take no wounds and not get moved by cards effects, then in your next turn you can do an aimed attack if you don't move before doint it.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
roufus wrote:
...so if I'm reading this right, the ONLY thing you can do when you 'ready' an aim attack is stand there and do your aim order?

Therefor... if you move the 4 during the 'move OR attack' you'd basically forfeit it because you wouldn't have an attack to use during your ready action?

If true, that solves the problem.

But is there any time you can discard the aim order other than your turn (like you can with guard orders?) If you can only use it during that exact same turn, I'm not seeing how you'd move/take damage.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but does that mean you can (before moving) put the AIM order down, roll once, be satisfied with the result, and then move 4? (There were multiple occasions in my game group where they would move intending to do something, and then change their mind depending on how the dice went.)

No, you're still not getting it. Aim does not give you an attack, period. Aim allows you to reroll an attack, and you have to spend the aim before you attack. You cannot attack and then move when you do a Ready action (unless you have a marine card that overrides this). You can only attack OR move.

One thing to keep in mind is that you place your Order (Aim/Dodge/Guard/Heal) at any time during your turn. Usually Aim is placed at the beginning, and the others are placed at the end, but there is no requirement to do so.

To make things absolutely clear, here are the options you (normally) have with Aim:

- Declare a Ready action.
- Place your Aim order
- Discard your Aim order and make your attack, rerolling any dice you wish.

- Declare a Ready action.
- Move 4 spaces
- Place your Aim order

- Declare a Ready action
- Place your Aim order
- Attack but don't use Aim.

- Declare a Ready action
- Attack
- Place an Aim order

The most common is the first set, you Ready, Aim, Fire. However, you can do any of the other ones and still have the Aim token on your figure. Typically it's a Move then place Aim. You're moving into position, then you intend to use the Aim order next turn on an attack before you move. This is a little risky, since if the Invader wounds you, you lose the Aim token. Or if things get wonky and there's no one to attack and you have to move, you lose your Aim token.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
roufus wrote:
(There were multiple occasions in my game group where they would move intending to do something, and then change their mind depending on how the dice went.)

Also, this is a stickler with the Doom rules. You have to declare your action at the beginning of your turn. You can't shoot, then decide to shoot again or move based on the first outcome. You have to declare Unload at the beginning of your turn, then shoot twice. Or Advance, then shoot/move. You can't change the action mid-turn.

In the case of Unload and your first shot happens to kill the badguy, well then you do nothing for your second shot and your turn is over. If you don't like how that plays, feel free to house rule it (it's a relatively common one, where players have 2 "actions" per turn, and these actions can be move, attack, order).

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aaaaaaaaaaalright. I got it. There was a principle assumption in our games that you HAD to use the AIM on the VERY SAME TURN for it to not be worthless.

THIS is basically the bit of information I needed: There's no mention of "starting the turn".

(What probably added to our confusion is that we had 'sharp shooter' on the board for the very first game.)

SO...

Aim orders DON'T MAGICALLY GO AWAY just because it's your NEXT turn...
THAT makes all the difference in the world.

And shnar's breakdown of what is possible opens the whole world of tactical options to me.

You can do this (assuming you don't get hit):

Turn 1: Declare 'Ready'. Move 4, and then drop an AIM token by your feet.

Turn 2: On your next turn, choose to UNLOAD and, satisfied with both of your rolls, you keep the AIM where it sits.

Turn 3: Declare an 'advance' attack once, discard the AIM to reroll, and then move 4.

Am I right on my (brand new and shiny) assessment?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
roufus wrote:
You can do this (assuming you don't get hit):

Turn 1: Declare 'Ready'. Move 4, and then drop an AIM token by your feet.

Turn 2: On your next turn, choose to UNLOAD and, satisfied with both of your rolls, you keep the AIM where it sits.

Turn 3: Declare an 'advance' attack once, discard the AIM to reroll, and then move 4.

Am I right on my (brand new and shiny) assessment?

Almost, but you're getting it now

The only problem with your assessment is that you have to spend your Aim token before you make the attack, not after you roll the dice. So you can't keep it "satisfied with both of your rolls", you choose to use it before you roll (which can lead to 'wasted aim').

-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Got it. Thanks. I would have missed that fact as well.

Aim order down (already), choose to unload, do the first attack regular, wasn't satisfied and that monster REALLY HAS TO DIE, decide to discard AIM for the second to assure it happens.

This was.... gosh.

I can't be the only one that misread this a half a dozen times in the directions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That sounds correct.

-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Condon
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One more crazy potential that might not be allowed...

Could you drop an aim order one turn, do nothing and drop a guard order the next turn, and then do an aimed guard attack out of turn by discarding both?

There might be a limitation on stacking orders in this way, but I don't recall seeing anything against it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fabio Calzolari
Italy
S.Lazzaro di Savena
Bologna
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the rulebook, where they explain the order tokens, it is said that a marine can only have ONE order.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is also for cases like Tactician where he is able to place an order on another marine. Cannot have two orders at the same time.

The exact rule is on pg 9:

Quote:
A marine can only have one order at any one time. A marine
that has already been issued an order cannot receive another
order until the first order is used or removed (see next page).


-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill D.
United States
Unspecified
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Which always made me wonder why even bother with Aim tokens since I'm sure 99.99% of the time it will be discarded as soon as it's placed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Challis
United Kingdom
Hungerford
West Berkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
knight508 wrote:
Which always made me wonder why even bother with Aim tokens since I'm sure 99.99% of the time it will be discarded as soon as it's placed.


Actually I'd say we more often use it to move up to a door and aim, rather than open it, and not be able to deal with whatever is on the other side.

You aim whilst the rest of the squad catches up, then someone opens the door and the others unload with Aim. In my experience it's mostly used NEXT turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's also that marine card that let's you put an order on another marine. Oft times, in our games, that marine will go first, drop an Aim order on a different marine. Without the token, it'd be easy to forget he has aim (especially if he didn't go next).

-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.