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Subject: Am I right or wrong? Need your feedback please. rss

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Joe Brinkman
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So I played in a regional tournament. I want to throw a situation out to everyone. There were 4 of us. First round I win so 5 points.

Second round my opponent is second TO. This is legal as main TO is not playing. I pull out asteroids and my opponent says "oh man asteroids?" I reply of course its a regional so you have to use them. He had not in his first match a modified win for him. I lost this match in a modified. I took out one of his ships he took out one of mine. 29 points for him 12 for me. During this match we had a question about an asteroid rule and the Main TO had the correct answer but said they rarely use astroids in the store so I also mention to main TO that asteroids are required for regional.

3rd and final round I switch tables and I win against my final opponent. Second TO does as well. However he still did not use asteroids in his final bout. He ends up with 11 points 2 modifiers and a win. I have 10 points with 2 wins. Now at this point I have two points to make.
1. After the TO becomes aware of the asteroids yet still turns a blind eye to the other match I say it is a DQ. He stands by the other TO's win and gives him the regional.
2. Also second TO who was playing was main TO for a netrunner tournament going on at the same time. Whenever he had to break away our TO would give us extra time on our round in estimate of how long he was gone. Seemed like we only got about 4 or 5 turns in our 65 minute match and the other 2 opponents I was able to run at least 8 plus turns. Felt like a bit of time wasting where the modified could have gone either way for us. I had 2 more of his ships on the ropes one more turn may have killed them and gotten me the modify win.

Yes this is seeming petty I am sure but it is not sitting right with me as I watch a store employee walk away with a trophy when the playing field was not level. I can handle losing I just want a level playing field to lose on. Sooo am I right or am I wrong?
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Gilbert Martin
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It would not sit well with me as well. Perhaps it is a question to ask Fantasy Flight on their Regional tournaments page.
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Jeff Wilder

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I wouldn't care for it. I'd probably contact someone about it.

I, personally, wouldn't begrudge a TO the decision not to use asteroids (though I have no idea if that decision is within his power in an official tournament), but at the very least, it needs to be published ahead of time, and no deciding game-by-game.

Asteroids help or hinder certain builds and strategies. If "no asteroids" is a tournament rule, therefore, it needs to be published, just as the round length does (which also helps or hinders certain builds or strategies).

Is it a coincidence that the deputy TO was flying at least one Academy TIE and was avoiding using asteroids? Probably, but maybe not. Was he flying a swarm?

On the other hand, the question on time is more difficult to fault. It sounds like the TO made a good faith effort to grant extra time, so my inclination is to give some slack for that one. (I'd reconsider if you timed his absences and the make-up time and there was a significant discrepancy, but in the absence of that, I think you need to forget this complaint and focus on the one that you can prove.)

I don't know how important Regionals are in X-Wing, but in DDM they were a flight to GenCon and a spot in the World Championships, so it was a big deal. If X-Wing approaches that, you should definitely take this to FFG. My only question is whather to try one final appeal to the TO or not. Nobody reading this is going to be able to judge if that's worth the courtesy and effort, though.
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Scott Egan
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Jeff Wilder wrote:
I wouldn't care for it. I'd probably contact someone about it.

I, personally, wouldn't begrudge a TO the decision not to use asteroids (though I have no idea if that decision is within his power in an official tournament), but at the very least, it needs to be published ahead of time, and no deciding game-by-game.

Asteroids help or hinder certain builds and strategies. If "no asteroids" is a tournament rule, therefore, it needs to be published, just as the round length does (which also helps or hinders certain builds or strategies).

Is it a coincidence that the deputy TO was flying at least one Academy TIE and was avoiding using asteroids? Probably, but maybe not. Was he flying a swarm?

On the other hand, the question on time is more difficult to fault. It sounds like the TO made a good faith effort to grant extra time, so my inclination is to give some slack for that one. (I'd reconsider if you timed his absences and the make-up time and there was a significant discrepancy, but in the absence of that, I think you need to forget this complaint and focus on the one that you can prove.)

I don't know how important Regionals are in X-Wing, but in DDM they were a flight to GenCon and a spot in the World Championships, so it was a big deal. If X-Wing approaches that, you should definitely take this to FFG. My only question is whather to try one final appeal to the TO or not. Nobody reading this is going to be able to judge if that's worth the courtesy and effort, though.


FFG provides a free pass and first round bye for their Regional winners. So they do have a bit of a vested interest in how the event is run.

A TO running a Regional event by anything but the stated ruleset is just plain shady. There aren't local events they are regional, meant to draw in players from other playgroups. Letting your buddy pick and choose rules is just plain not kosher.
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Robert M.
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ScottieATF wrote:
A TO running a Regional event by anything but the stated ruleset is just plain shady.


This. With respect to asteroids, either the TOs didn't know the rules, or they didn't care. Asteroids are not optional in the tournament rules (see Squad Deployment Procedure on page 2 of the tournament rule book), so in the most charitable reading, the TOs have never played in a well-run tournament and have never thoroughly read the rules.

So that part of the story is definitely out of bounds.

The part about leaving the table is even worse in my view, but its legality is less clear. If you're a TO, it seems reasonable to make sure you can actually be present for and invested in the T you're O-ing; running two tournaments simultaneously is a bit iffy, and the second or third time you have to get up from a game you're playing in order to pay attention to a different tournament... I'd say the smart thing would have been not to try to multitask like that at all, but the sportsmanlike thing in this case would have been for your opponent to concede.

Except that the TO did try to make it right, so... Like I said, the legality there is less clear.

***

With all that said, I'm not sure what your recourse is. I would email FFG's customer service and let them know how bad the tournament experience was, but you won't retroactively be made the winner, and you won't get your entry fee back. The best thing to do might be to chalk it up as a particularly crappy practice session for your real Regionals session, which you get to play at some other place between now and June.
 
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Joe Brinkman
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
ScottieATF wrote:
A TO running a Regional event by anything but the stated ruleset is just plain shady.


This. With respect to asteroids, either the TOs didn't know the rules, or they didn't care. Asteroids are not optional in the tournament rules (see Squad Deployment Procedure on page 2 of the tournament rule book), so in the most charitable reading, the TOs have never played in a well-run tournament and have never thoroughly read the rules.

So that part of the story is definitely out of bounds.

The part about leaving the table is even worse in my view, but its legality is less clear. If you're a TO, it seems reasonable to make sure you can actually be present for and invested in the T you're O-ing; running two tournaments simultaneously is a bit iffy, and the second or third time you have to get up from a game you're playing in order to pay attention to a different tournament... I'd say the smart thing would have been not to try to multitask like that at all, but the sportsmanlike thing in this case would have been for your opponent to concede.

Except that the TO did try to make it right, so... Like I said, the legality there is less clear.

***

With all that said, I'm not sure what your recourse is. I would email FFG's customer service and let them know how bad the tournament experience was, but you won't retroactively be made the winner, and you won't get your entry fee back. The best thing to do might be to chalk it up as a particularly crappy practice session for your real Regionals session, which you get to play at some other place between now and June.


That is how I felt. I can concede the second point with the time. That was on me for not saying something right then and there. I did call them shortly after I left the store and stated my case one more time. I only stated the case on the asteroids and not the timing thing. Of course he sided with the store employee again and said "sorry man I am going to have to let it stand that's on me for not using them" Still feels to me like the hometown boys teaming up against the outsider. I was not local to the store and it was quite the long drive to get there. I was thinking of emailing the store and seeing if the owners responded to give them one more chance to do right before appealing to FFG. Or should I just email FFG and cc the store so they can see I am doing that?
 
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Joe Brinkman
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Jeff Wilder wrote:
I wouldn't care for it. I'd probably contact someone about it.

I, personally, wouldn't begrudge a TO the decision not to use asteroids (though I have no idea if that decision is within his power in an official tournament), but at the very least, it needs to be published ahead of time, and no deciding game-by-game.

Asteroids help or hinder certain builds and strategies. If "no asteroids" is a tournament rule, therefore, it needs to be published, just as the round length does (which also helps or hinders certain builds or strategies).

Is it a coincidence that the deputy TO was flying at least one Academy TIE and was avoiding using asteroids? Probably, but maybe not. Was he flying a swarm?

On the other hand, the question on time is more difficult to fault. It sounds like the TO made a good faith effort to grant extra time, so my inclination is to give some slack for that one. (I'd reconsider if you timed his absences and the make-up time and there was a significant discrepancy, but in the absence of that, I think you need to forget this complaint and focus on the one that you can prove.)

I don't know how important Regionals are in X-Wing, but in DDM they were a flight to GenCon and a spot in the World Championships, so it was a big deal. If X-Wing approaches that, you should definitely take this to FFG. My only question is whather to try one final appeal to the TO or not. Nobody reading this is going to be able to judge if that's worth the courtesy and effort, though.


You guessed it. He was flying a 5 ship swarm trying to keep everyone together of course.
 
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Robert M.
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DarthOctane wrote:
I was thinking of emailing the store and seeing if the owners responded to give them one more chance to do right before appealing to FFG. Or should I just email FFG and cc the store so they can see I am doing that?

They've already responded, and like you've said, you're the outsider in this situation.

I would definitely e-mail FFG, because as far as I know they actually take their tournament sanctioning somewhat seriously, and it may help for them to know that the TOs were using irregular rules with no notice to participants and weren't responsive to feedback. I wouldn't bother to CC the organizers: they already know you're unhappy, and have made clear that they're not interested--so they've opted out of their opportunity to affect the way you communicate to others about their unprofessional handling of the event.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that giving FFG a heads-up about these clowns is something nice you can do for the player community, but after that you're probably going to have to let it go. You were in the right, but the organizers are unlikely to recognize or admit that, and holding on to the frustration will make you miserable but won't change the outcome. soblue
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Joe Brinkman
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
DarthOctane wrote:
I was thinking of emailing the store and seeing if the owners responded to give them one more chance to do right before appealing to FFG. Or should I just email FFG and cc the store so they can see I am doing that?

They've already responded, and like you've said, you're the outsider in this situation.

I would definitely e-mail FFG, because as far as I know they actually take their tournament sanctioning somewhat seriously, and it may help for them to know that the TOs were using irregular rules with no notice to participants and weren't responsive to feedback. I wouldn't bother to CC the organizers: they already know you're unhappy, and have made clear that they're not interested--so they've opted out of their opportunity to affect the way you communicate to others about their unprofessional handling of the event.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that giving FFG a heads-up about these clowns is something nice you can do for the player community, but after that you're probably going to have to let it go. You were in the right, but the organizers are unlikely to recognize or admit that, and holding on to the frustration will make you miserable but won't change the outcome. soblue


You are correct. I have sent an email to FFG and I also sent an email to the owners of the store as they were not there or involved in the tournament. They may care as it is their store and reputation being affected by two employees. I did concede the time situation and stuck to the asteroid ruling in the email. You are right at this point it is out of my hands and there is nothing I can except go enjoy my local X wing league with my nephew today and show off my new Dice bag and acrylic Target locks I got yesterday.

While I do hope against all hope The owners do what is right and grant me my win. That will allow me to work with my nephew for our local regional to try and get him his win so we can go to nationals together. (he is 23 and pretty good at the game)At this point like you said I have to let go of the frustration and not let it eat me up inside until I get a response.

Thank you for your input. I respect your opinion alot. You are quite the voice in the community and on the boards. Its funny I read through threads and tend to look for "Vorpal Sword" before I add more credibility to the post.
 
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Robert M.
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DarthOctane wrote:
Its funny I read through threads and tend to look for "Vorpal Sword" before I add more credibility to the post.

modest

I read something like this and think "Don't people know how often I'm totally wrong?!"

Hope the next (local) tournament is a better experience!
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Jeff Kayati
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As someone who has been a TO for a regional FFG event, I can tell you that the communication from FFG about how to run the events is very sparse. The TO needs to be proactive in finding out what is the correct protocol for the event.

I think the TO was clearly wrong here in not stating before the tournament there would be no asteroids, but they simply may not have known what was expected of them. Yes, they should have taken the time to learn it, but that info doesn't come with the regionals kit, and there is zero feedback from FFG.

I'd rightly complain about the TO to FFG, and to FFG about their poor supervision of these events.
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Scott Egan
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jkayati wrote:
As someone who has been a TO for a regional FFG event, I can tell you that the communication from FFG about how to run the events is very sparse. The TO needs to be proactive in finding out what is the correct protocol for the event.

I think the TO was clearly wrong here in not stating before the tournament there would be no asteroids, but they simply may not have known what was expected of them. Yes, they should have taken the time to learn it, but that info doesn't come with the regionals kit, and there is zero feedback from FFG.

I'd rightly complain about the TO to FFG, and to FFG about their poor supervision of these events.


As much I've made mention of FFG needing to better organize their organized play (you can find a post made by me on the FFG forums for the SWLCG about just that) there is no excuse for a TO not even bothering to adhere to the basic tournament rules that can be found extraordinarily easily through the FFG website. The tournament rules are about as basic as basic gets when gathering what you need to run an event.

For someone to run a tournament and seemingly not even bother to read and/or follow the rules, is inexcusable
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Xander Fulton
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ScottieATF wrote:
jkayati wrote:
As someone who has been a TO for a regional FFG event, I can tell you that the communication from FFG about how to run the events is very sparse. The TO needs to be proactive in finding out what is the correct protocol for the event.

I think the TO was clearly wrong here in not stating before the tournament there would be no asteroids, but they simply may not have known what was expected of them. Yes, they should have taken the time to learn it, but that info doesn't come with the regionals kit, and there is zero feedback from FFG.

I'd rightly complain about the TO to FFG, and to FFG about their poor supervision of these events.


As much I've made mention of FFG needing to better organize their organized play (you can find a post made by me on the FFG forums for the SWLCG about just that) there is no excuse for a TO not even bothering to adhere to the basic tournament rules that can be found extraordinarily easily through the FFG website. The tournament rules are about as basic as basic gets when gathering what you need to run an event.

For someone to run a tournament and seemingly not even bother to read and/or follow the rules, is inexcusable


FFG is actually pretty dreadful about every aspect of the 'servicing their customers' aspect of their business - LOL.

It's a shame, as someone in marketing...because I've seen how serious and interactive engagement with your fan base, utilizing social media channels (including more substantial presence on their own forums and related sites - so BGG for someone like FFG), etc can really accelerate a business to a crazy degree.

And FFG just really drops the ball in that regard. It's a good thing their game designs are so good, and production values so solid, that they can effectively 'rest on their laurels' and still do well...but...GAWSH there is so much more they could be doing. soblue
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Joe Brinkman
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I have emailed the store owners and FFG. Within 30 minutes I had a response from the Main TO via email. He apologized for running the tournament poorly and stated that his judgement may have cost me. He said he did not want to take away the persons win because they played so well. He said he has reached out to FFG to see if they can help him make the situation right. I am in the process of composing my reply. I will keep everyone posted.
 
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Derrick Billings
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If the other TO was running a TIE formation then having no Asteroids was pretty much...well, I've been admonished lately for namecalling so I'll just say it was "breaking the rules in such a way as to give a competitive advantage."

What word best fits such behavior is left as an exercise for the reader.
 
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Gilbert Martin
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DarthOctane wrote:
I have emailed the store owners and FFG. Within 30 minutes I had a response from the Main TO via email. He apologized for running the tournament poorly and stated that his judgement may have cost me. He said he did not want to take away the persons win because they played so well. He said he has reached out to FFG to see if they can help him make the situation right. I am in the process of composing my reply. I will keep everyone posted.


Any news on this?
 
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Joe Brinkman
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Gib1 wrote:
DarthOctane wrote:
I have emailed the store owners and FFG. Within 30 minutes I had a response from the Main TO via email. He apologized for running the tournament poorly and stated that his judgement may have cost me. He said he did not want to take away the persons win because they played so well. He said he has reached out to FFG to see if they can help him make the situation right. I am in the process of composing my reply. I will keep everyone posted.


Any news on this?


Yes there is. FFG got back to me and said thank you for informing us of the situation. The Main TO said he would be willing to refund my money and that was pretty much it. I did not take the refund. I chalked it up to a learning experience and went to the next regional much better prepared. I made sure we were all on the same page with the rules and there were no ambiguities. Made my Victory there that much better as I knew the playing field was 100% level. So I have my regional win and I am happy it didn't come from a ruling reversal. The trophy is mine with no question.
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