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Subject: Overview of Burning Suns After Prototype Play rss

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Beyer
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Edit, Aug 25th 2013: This review is based on the first available prototype from the first kickstarter campaign.
Several things are bound to be different about Burning Suns in its current implementation.

Introduction:
I'm not going to cover the balance, since the game is still a work in progress, I'm not going to comment on the looks since it's still a prototype and I'm not going to extensively quote the rules since they are freely available in a draft format that will actually explain 90% of the game.
I will try to not pass judgment on the game in any way, I'll just relay information as I see it. Whether you think this 'review' sounds good to you is up to you. No two gamer's have the same taste in games and I honestly don't want to affect anyone's decision in this should my taste in game differ.
Therefore I try to deliver as much info as possible and let you connect the dots yourself.


Rules:
The rules are clear and intuitive and are looking to be further streamlined. There is a rock/paper/scissors structure to a lot of things in the game, which means that there is often not a single best way to approach getting Victory Points.
Victory Points, by the way, is measured in anti-matter so if I mix the two terms at some point, they are synonomous.

It took about a game to get used to all the options the rules present. There is nuances hidden in what seems to be very straightforward actions and I don't think a lot of people are going to experience the full game in their first go, but I think a lot of people will want a second game to see what happens when everyone knows how the game goes down.





Rock/Paper/Scissors:
An example from the game: If you want to gain control of a planet you need to do one of two things(colonize/assault) and planets come in three different types (uninhabited/ inhabited/hostile).
You can colonize which costs you money or you can invade the planet with ground forces (this is free) preserving the infrastructure on the planet. Since it's free to assault, the planet is in social unrest after the attack which means you only get to choose one of two possible planetary bonuses until you can stabilize it via diplomacy. The bonuses are usually more income or VP or a small modifier to some game stat, like colonization or construction costs.

A system in unrest is susceptible to further sabotage and others can actually incite rebellion on the planet which will kick your forces (and colussus) off. So there is a tradeoff.
This is also one way to get rid of a colussus if you don't dare go head to head in a ground assault (hint, you probably don't). This means that even if you invest in a colussus, political sabotage will remove it, so you aren't totally safe with a planetary-bombardment-proof warwalker. Rock/paper/scissors.

Since planets come in: Uninhabited, inhabited and hostile you cannot colonize an uninhabited planet with soldiers, you need to pay some terraforming engineers to do it and it's the opposite with a hostile planet. Hostiles are hard to keep a hold of but the bonus they offer is substantial, so odds are there will be some fighting over them.

Now, if you can't really defeat all the ground forces in a ground assault you can just bombard the planet, safe in orbit until someone intervenes. Bombardements are totally safe for your forces, but the infrastructure on the planet suffers from the barrage so a bombardment destroys a building on the planet (on most planets there is only room for one building and usually they are really nice to keep intact). Also; you don't get control of the planet. You need to invest (by that I mean paying some money to colonize) or put soldiers on the ground.

There is a rock/paper/scissors to conquest and the three actions have separate spaces on the action charts you can't just choose to fight and then choose what suits you best, you have to make an actual choice between kicking someone out of the planetary system's airspace/nuking the planet from orbit/making a ground assault.

It strikes a very interesting balance because some players would rather vacuum space for enemy fleets and get VP from battles, while other will rather put troops on the surface.


Looking up stats all the time:
I was afraid that I'd be constantly looking from the action table to my player display to figure out bonuses, but when it came down to it, it really wasn't that bad. I quickly remembered that the leader that looks like my X-ray Professor was a lot better than the one that looks like the Danish Prime minister and so I didn't misplace leaders when putting them on the action charts. Bombardments were +2 and so was colonization. It all made sense.




Things can take time:
Because the possible actions don't always come in the same order, the action cards are shuffled between rounds, sometimes things take time to do. It can feel a bit like multitasking in a real-time strategy game.
You might have a plan but you need this one last piece to make it work and in the meantime you need to make sure that your opponent doesn't get away with too much.
Some turns the actions line up to get that piece of tech, then move some ships and then kick the snot out of someone, but other times you'll need to plan a turn ahead.
Three-turns planning is way too much for me, because there is so much going on in this game, but two turns is definitely doable and again it doesn't invite people to try and overthink the game. It gives you a bit of perspective, but not something that will last hours into the game. You might have a strategy for your race and but you will have to rely on tactics in the meantime.



Warfare:
Warfare is the primary way to gain VP. Some planets will yield Antimatter, but you lose those points again if you lose the planet.
Warfare is a costly, but stable way to rake in VP.

Agents:
The agent cards work quite well. They give you an interesting static bonus and in a pinch you can trash the agent (using the appropriate action on the 'special' action board) and gain a one time effect from the agent. They all seem very interesting and are always worth it.


Turtling:
You get awarded VP for winning battles. Static 1 VP per battle you win. It very much invites people to get in each other's faces. The attacker has a clear advantage because he gets to roll dice first so you want to be the one invading, not getting invaded...
In most instances that is.

This also means that the player who has the weakest fleet is going to get battered because he's free VP.

This also means that if two forces duke it out and a weak fleet is left behind, someone else can wipe them off the map and make a VP on that.

It seems weird and like this would deteriorate into a turtle game, but I can't see how that would happen. If people don't want to fight, someone is going to get ahead in colonization and someone will need to fight his planets and someone will want to attack what's left and so the ball starts rolling anyway.





Diplomacy:
There is no voting on political issues per se, but if you aren't openly conspiring to beat the snot out of someone, you're doing it wrong.

If someone has a huge fleet, you can probably destabilize and incite rebellion on his best planets and cut him from resources without risking your own marines to do so. It's not going to kill the fleet, but it's going to cut the umbillical chord to the empire's coffers and you can start whittling away at the fleet and not see it rebuilt immediately. This might not be obvious to begin with and most of us were inclined to just go head to head with a superior fleet and try to defeat it with combined arms. You can't gang up on a player per se, but several players CAN choose a jump action and a battle action and move their fleets to attack, but it takes time.




Worker Placement:
The worker placement part works really well.
The worker placement part of the game takes away a lot of downtime, it's tactically interesting and just works.

In a five player game there are three available slots for every possible action, so if everyone want to construct, two players can't. Now the rules as we played them gave the opportunity to place a leader in the first of the three slots as well as the last of the three slots, which incidentally proved to telegraph heavily what the player wanted to do with his money. If a player placed his leader last in the construction queue he was looking to build a fleet and intentionally waited to see where the other players wanted to build, but if he placed his leader in the front of the selection slots he clearly wanted to buy tech before someone else did. Most of the slots have this tactical play to them and it really does matter game-wise what slot you place your leader in, which suprised me a bit.
It wasn't something I'd foreseen before I actually played Burning Suns. I figured a placed leader would just be a placed leader, but it really matters.
If you want to have the first turn you can either place your leader in a spot where you will be the last to activate, this is the default way to determine last player or you can forfeit your right to place on of your leaders, which trumps this and automatically gives you first turn next round.



Flow:
You are presented with a lot of choices during your turn but the choices make sense, do not tax your brain overly and are clearly distinguished from each other.
By distinguished I mean you do NOT get hold of an alien cannon by:
placing three workers in an orbital base that will fire a statically charged Scrodingers cat (and that took you two turn of tying the cat down and getting hold of a plastic comb and also a quantum physicist to observe the cat at make sure it was alive by means of the Copenhagen interpretation) out of a rail gun (made possible by earlier equally complex research) aimed so it glances off a satelitte that will then get a surge of AC power from the hypersonic feline grazing up against a cobold carapace that you handsomely researched three rounds ago by means of a long piece of red string (you had to earn in a battle against a neutral alien species) and a half-cooked chicken and a refrigerator magnet off the coast of R'lyeh...you know?*
You point at a piece of gear you want and you buy that gear with the ONE kind of freaking currency you got at your disposal. The same currency you colonize with, build space ships/orbital stations/colussi and titans with. You don't get bogged down with ore and colonists and now can't afford a new cruiser because you needed the red monies not the blue monies to buy it with (yes the odd plural form is intentional).
There is plenty of things to worry about in a 4X game, accountancy shouldn't be one of them and in Burning Suns it isn't. If you like managing a large resource apparatus behind the 4X lines I don't think Burning Suns is the right choice.


In plain English:
You want to fight in space? Choose the fight-in-space option.
You want to glass a planet from orbit, choose accordingly.
You want to sabotage a factory? Choose sabotage and remember to send a capable agent.
Etcetera.

When I say the choices don't tax you overly I'd like to compare with a worker placement game: Caylus.
In Caylus you can meticulously calculate the effect of everything and so it can take a while (a while in this context means a VERY long time) for someone with a bit of AP to figure what the best choice is (yes, that's me) for every worker he has to place. In Burning Suns many things rely on dice rolls so you'll take a guesstimate at what seems to make the most sense to you right now and just go with it. It speeds up the game and retains the feel you normally have in a worker placement game where you feel you shape your turn rather than follow a set template.

It's not that it feels dumb, the choices themselves are always interesing but you don't get bogged down with pre-calculating every single move throughout the game and balancing a long string of esoteric things that need to be done in order to achieve something.

You don't sit idle around a table and wait for four other geeks to finish their turn because the workers you place switches up the activations. You still wait for a certain amount of time, but since the wait is spread out more evenly it's MUCH easier to endure.

The worker placement part of the game fixes one of the main gripes I have with 'epic' games: Waiting for other players to finish their turn. Not so in Burning Suns. The actions don't take very long and there is usually something to be mindful of.

Dice:
Burning Suns has dice. You roll dice all the time. It's not stupendous amounts of them you just have to roll for almost everything unless you are just moving, constructing and colonizing. But still, you roll a lot of dice. Dice will screw you over from time to time (in my case it was game breaking) and if you can't stand a game that has luck don't play 4X games at all.

If you are a die-hard (die... olollo) euro fan I don't think you'll enjoy Burning Suns. If you want a space game with some functional euro themes thrown in, I think you're in good hands.



* This is me playing too much Monkey Island for my own good.


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matt way
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You seem to be suggesting that the game is unfinished by your balancing observation. How unfinished/unbalanced are we talking about?
Certainly one of the concerns about having so many interchangable empire powers is that it leads to play imbalance due to not having time to fully test out the various power combinations.

Poliorcetes
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Beyer
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Poliorcetes wrote:
You seem to be suggesting that the game is unfinished ...

To begin with I wrote a long response but I can't answer your question in an honest manner. I can't answer you in a way that clarifies what you want to know.

What do you want me to say: The balance i 83.2% done, but one race needs a +1 modifier and one need better troops?
After playing one game? I can't answer you because I'm not very familiar with this style of game and I don't see immediate holes in rulesets for Ameritrash/thematic/4X games. I do so much better in euros and miniature games. Whatever I answer won't satisfy anyone for two reasons:
I don't have the experience with 4X games in general
I don't have the experience with Burnings Suns.

My first impression of Burning Suns was that I very consistently fudged my dice rolls and then fucked up my decisions when I tried to get back on track. When the game ended I was much wiser to what weapons were at my disposal and I don't really think my second game will go as the first one did.

The rules are simple but also important and you need to know what everything does and how much of an effect it will have on the other players when you make decisions. Player skill matters, which also means that I think Burning Suns will reward people who play it repeatedly.

That's the best answer I have.
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Ray Smith
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Thank you so much for the report.
You definitely provided some insights into most of the aspects of the game. And, I appreciate your intentional ambivalence without having more plays with a finished product.

Even with only one play, the fact that you didn't state that Burning Suns was boring, broken, had bad design choices, or a poor bastardization of other games (i.e. a derogatory 4B game), I'm happy I made the Kickstarter investment.

meeple
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matt way
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Thank you for the honest review, nicely done!

Poliorcetes
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Asger Harding Granerud
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I participated in the same session as the OP, even played at the same table. I very much agree with his input above.

Balance wise, without having the long term experience required to really evaluate it, there seemed to be a few possible miss matches in player powers, but:

A) Emil seemd on top of those last fixes.

B) Nothing that can't be solved by simply injecting an auctioning of the variable powers at the start.

I'm not a 4X man myself, nor was I a big fan of Eclipse (though intrigued enough to know that I have to try it again), but the low downtime, lots (LOTS!) of tactical nuances, and the accessible economy could be the final push in Burning Suns. Alas the full evaluation probably requires 3 of my gaming mates and several tests

Regards
Asger
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Rasmus Crumb Sheik
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Wasn't at the same table but I can also agree with the very well written overview. We played a much more passive game but it did become clear that you need to get out there and fight to win it.

On a purely subjective note I think the game had a nice feel with the illustrations and names, also the cardboard units looked pretty good on the table.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Stunke wrote:
[q="Poliorcetes"]
I don't have the experience with 4X games in general
I don't have the experience with Burnings Suns.


Not to be too flippant... but why was this person chosen to give us one of our desperately needed previews?
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Joseph Courtight
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epilepticemu wrote:
Stunke wrote:
[q="Poliorcetes"]
I don't have the experience with 4X games in general
I don't have the experience with Burnings Suns.


Not to be too flippant... but why was this person chosen to give us one of our desperately needed previews?


He is a much appreciated volunteer.
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Beyer
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epilepticemu wrote:

Not to be too flippant... but why was this person chosen to give us one of our desperately needed previews?

I wrote a long response but then I realized: Nothing will be good enough for 'your' standards save the game's designer himself giving you a preview (which I reckon you will then shoot down on behalf of bias).

I took a day out to play and hours out to put that preview together for all those looking into this game, with which I have no affiliation.

I'm doing research for you and your one-line response is quoting something out of context. I'll put this down to a misunderstanding of position.

If you have a problem with the campaign, take it out on those running it, not a stranger doing you a favour. Thank you.
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Martin Gallo
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epilepticemu wrote:
Stunke wrote:
[q="Poliorcetes"]
I don't have the experience with 4X games in general
I don't have the experience with Burnings Suns.


Not to be too flippant... but why was this person chosen to give us one of our desperately needed previews?
Not to be flippant but what was wrong with this perfect preview. An unbiased opinion backed up with examples and explained eloquently seemed like the perfect preview to me.
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martimer wrote:
epilepticemu wrote:
Stunke wrote:
[q="Poliorcetes"]
I don't have the experience with 4X games in general
I don't have the experience with Burnings Suns.


Not to be too flippant... but why was this person chosen to give us one of our desperately needed previews?
Not to be flippant but what was wrong with this perfect preview. An unbiased opinion backed up with examples and explained eloquently seemed like the perfect preview to me.


There's nothing wrong with the preview itself, but when asked to expand on something he said, the guy got all defensive, acted like someone was demanding intimate details of the design process, and started shouting, "Hey, stop grilling me, I don't know anything about games!"

It seems kind of silly.

Thanks for the preview just the same, OP.
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Beyer
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Seahawk wrote:
... and started shouting, "Hey, stop grilling me, I don't know anything about games!"
It seems kind of silly.
...

Are we reading the same topic?
Could you quote, in context not out of context, where I'm defending myself from being grilled and/or shouting at people? I thought I was being mindful of the actual discussion throughout, but in case my writing betrays my thoughts I'd like to know. I could potentially learn from it.

I'm so confused why I am first referred to as 'this person', in what appears to be a derogatory manner and then have the validity of my preview questioned because I don't go about this by forming a possibly wrong opinion about things I now (after playing the game itself and thinking about it) know I'm not knowledgeable about.

I can speculate, but until I put that speculation to a test, it's useless.

I think I clearly stated that I didn't think it was fair to neither customers nor the game to comment on balance. Explicitly stated because game experience seems to be a major factor. It's in the OP. Skill seems to matter a lot with Burning Suns and I don't have the necessary skill from only a single playthrough to comment on balance.

Is the concept of not saying something when you know you don't know, completely foreign? Would you prefer if I just spoke out, pretending to be an authority when I'm not, just because it would give you something to read?

Why does this stand void whatever else I contributed?

I realize that game balance is the major selling point of any game, that's also why I don't comment on it; It's too important.
I can understand your frustration, that you can't get a gauge of the balance, but what you can gauge is that Burning Suns is not evidently flawed nor does it pose clear strategies that are obvious straight off the bat. I can understand why it's frustrating for potential backers not to know, but as a mitigating factor you could consider that it also means it's a game with plenty of room to grow on the players.

If you just like things in simple words I'll say this again:
I got steamrolled.
I very much want to play Burning Suns again even though I did not have much fun playing my first game.
When I sat down and thought about the game, most of the flaws came back to my decisions and so, the lack of fun is probably due to the errors I made during the game.
I want to play it again, despite the first impression, because I think I am to blame for the quality of my first game.
Burning Suns is deceptively simple, so it's up to you, the player, to harness the options you are given.

If you like it even simpler:
Buy the game. It plays well, it grows on you, it's so exciting most of us ended up standing around the table, rather than sitting down.

Even Simpler:
Do you like games? Buy games. This one could be a good bet.

I'm adding the last paragraphs just so I have most bases covered in terms of grain. It's got nothing to do with Mr. Washington's post.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Stunke wrote:
epilepticemu wrote:

Not to be too flippant... but why was this person chosen to give us one of our desperately needed previews?

I wrote a long response but then I realized: Nothing will be good enough for 'your' standards save the game's designer himself giving you a preview (which I reckon you will then shoot down on behalf of bias).


Woah! I specifically said "not to be flippant" because I did NOT mean to attack you, the author, in any way. I didn't mean to attack the designer either.

Thank you for the preview! I appreciate it. Thank you to the designer for letting someone preview the game. I appreciate that too!

I was pointing out that a preview from someone with extensive 4X experience would be MORE useful. You're right, it was directed at the designer, not the OP, because I knew the designer would read it here, and it's relevant to this post.

Also, of course I would shoot down the designer's preview because of bias. I think many people would.
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Troels Rohde Hansen
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I don't know if Frederik was selected to write a preview. He just did. Just as anyone at any one of the play tests are entitled to write a review.


I do have a lot of 4X experience and I love those kind of games. I play Eclipse and own TI3 - I can back Frederik in anything he wrote. Also I saw that game develop, and nothing would work for him(what, missed rolling 1-6 on a d8 for 6 times?) - the fact that Frederik is willing to try it again, says a lot about Burning Suns(and maybe also that Frederik is not a quitter).


The game is 95% there. It has not been tested with 5 people before. Now it has and I know that Emil has planned 3 days more of big games testing. With the planned launch of the game, and all other game concepts settled, there is plenty of time to tweak the little things. There is a +2 that needs to be a +1 and a vice versa. sure. The way I see it is, that Kickstarter is not a web shop, but a site for funding projects. You can't buy a finished game but invest in a project, that then starts after the Kickstarter is over.

The fact that Emil got 95% of the game design plus budget, printer, playtester and distribution plan is nice though. Then again I have been waiting a year for Serpents Tongue, and I am not pissed yet - so I fall in the very tolerant category.


This game is already minor tweaks from being not only ready for the shelves, but also perfectly balanced.


...Troels
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Ben Rubinstein

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Thanks for the clarification!
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Simon Kamber
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TroelsR wrote:

The game is 95% there. It has not been tested with 5 people before.


Never been tested with 5 players before?

Do you happen to know if it has been blind tested? And if so, how has that been done when the 'first draft' rulebook was just released?

Still on the fence with this one. I like 4X games, but between the scarcity of concrete information and the incompleteness of the released materials, I am getting the impression that this game is far from finished. This wouldn't be a problem if it was presented as such, but it is being presented as if it is almost there, with just a few final layers of polish remaining, and that worries me.
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Troels Rohde Hansen
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I have to amend: Don't think it has ben playtestet with 5 before.


When you say blind testet, you mean giving the box, with rules to a group and let them start off all on their own?



You should really try the game, then I don't think you would have any doubt. Also I am pretty sure it will be 100% on release - remember that release is still many months away.



...Troels

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Simon Kamber
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TroelsR wrote:
When you say blind testet, you mean giving the box, with rules to a group and let them start off all on their own?


Yep. Particularly in a genre where the effect of metagame assumptions can be so profound, I believe blind testing is crucial.

Unfortunately, trying the game before deadline is not going to be possible
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Tyinsar -
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From what I recall of Undead Viking's review he seemed to think the races / races / powers were quite well balanced. It sounds like a lot of work is going into making this game as balanced as possible.
 
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Emil Larsen
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Yea, you're right. Undead viking tried the game after Stunke, so that's basically also part of the answer.
I'm really keen on making this a balance and fun game - main goals of course :-)
Best Emil
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Beyer
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'just realized people are directed to this review straight from the new kickstarter campaign so I've added a note at the top, saying this review relates to the first prototype.

Just so we get things straight.
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Steve Stanton
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"By distinguished I mean you do NOT get hold of an alien cannon by:
placing three workers in an orbital base that will fire a statically charged Scrodingers cat (and that took you two turn of tying the cat down and getting hold of a plastic comb and also a quantum physicist to observe the cat at make sure it was alive by means of the Copenhagen interpretation) out of a rail gun (made possible by earlier equally complex research) aimed so it glances off a satelitte that will then get a surge of AC power from the hypersonic feline grazing up against a cobold carapace that you handsomely researched three rounds ago by means of a long piece of red string (you had to earn in a battle against a neutral alien species) and a half-cooked chicken and a refrigerator magnet off the coast of R'lyeh...you know?*"

LOL!!!

It's many years later, but thanks for the prototype review. I just got my copy with all of the extra races and the more I'm reading, the more I want to get it to the table at my gaming group.
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