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Subject: Exploration actions on the camp tile rss

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Mark Stocks
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Sorry if someone has asked this already, I tried to look through the mass of threads but couldn't find anyone else asking.

If you take an exploration action on the tile with your camp can you use one less person? You use 1 or 2 people for the next tile, 2 or 3 for one tile away, and maybe only 1 person for the tile you are on?

I'm specifically thinking of scenario 4 where you could move your camp to a totem location then explore that totem. I realise there are a load of other modifiers but I didn't want to include them in the main question, but the modifier that sits by the decks will still ensure you need at least two people to do this exploration. It also feels as though it fits with the theme, you camp outside the entrance of the temple then go in the next day not needing as much time to do it.

Thanks
 
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Robin Lees
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Of the top of my head, I'm pretty certain that the rule book specifies that you can't gather resources as an action on your camp tile (as these resources were collected during the gather resources phase, prior to the actions phase).
 
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Robin, you are confusing Eploration with Gathering Ressources. That said, you are right, on the tile with the camp you cannot gather ressources.

There might, however, be a highly unlikely, yet possible, exception. And thank you for making me think of it...


1. You assign pawns during the planning stage of the action phase. This includes assigning pawns to an island tile for gathering ressources.
2. You build the shelter on a tile other than the camp (possible, check the rules).
3. After doing so, you immediately move the camp to the new tile, and turn the marker over, to the shelter side.
4. You now might have the camp on a tile where you also have pawns assigned for gathering ressources.

However, this is legal (I am 99% sure), as
a) the camp was not at the location of the source at the time of planning the action
b) you did not assign pawns to a source on the camp tile due to this fact, and
c) you have not gathered ressources from these sources during Production phase, anyhow.
The rule that disallows gathering from the ressources on the island tile is both thematic (they don't have anything anymore, this round), and mechanically to keep you from making it too easy for yourself.


As to the OP's question:
Yes, you can do Exploration actions on the tile with the camp, if the situation provides something to explore at that location.
But no, you need exactly 1 or 2 pawns on the island tile with the camp as well as those adjacent to it, therefore you don't "save" one pawn.
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Dumon wrote:
Robin, you are confusing Eploration with Gathering Ressources. That said, you are right, on the tile with the camp you cannot gather ressources.

There might, however, be a highly unlikely, yet possible, exception. And thank you for making me think of it...


1. You assign pawns during the planning stage of the action phase. This includes assigning pawns to an island tile for gathering ressources.
2. You build the shelter on a tile other than the camp (possible, check the rules).
3. After doing so, you immediately move the camp to the new tile, and turn the marker over, to the shelter side.
4. You now might have the camp on a tile where you also have pawns assigned for gathering ressources.

However, this is legal (I am 99% sure), as
a) the camp was not at the location of the source at the time of planning the action
b) you did not assign pawns to a source on the camp tile due to this fact, and
c) you have not gathered ressources from these sources during Production phase, anyhow.
The rule that disallows gathering from the ressources on the island tile is both thematic (they don't have anything anymore, this round), and mechanically to keep you from making it too easy for yourself.


As to the OP's question:
Yes, you can do Exploration actions on the tile with the camp, if the situation provides something to explore at that location.
But no, you need exactly 1 or 2 pawns on the island tile with the camp as well as those adjacent to it, therefore you don't "save" one pawn.


I thought that the camp didnt get relocated until AFTER all of the actions were resolved.
 
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Robin Lees
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Doh!
Note to self RTFQ!

Exploration will always cost a minimum of one action. After all, you can't explore, if you don't commit the time to do so.

I don't think of the "pawns" as "workers", but as periods of time (in the day). Time that I assign my character to do a task.

So I can explore a tile one away, at the cost of 1 period of time, but two tiles away as the cost of 2 periods of time- as it takes me longer to get there.

Now, I could use more time (2 periods) to explore 1 tile away. As my time is concentrated in this one area, I am more likely to find something, hence why it succeeds.

BUT If I rush through the task, and only assign 1 period of time to the task, well, something is bound to go wrong, so I roll the dice to reflect this - I might get lucky, but this is Robinson, so I probably won't.


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Mark Stocks
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I also see the paws as periods of time. I did suspect that I wouldn't get a "saving" but it was worth a check. The reason I'm asking is that after not playing the game since Christmas my girlfriend and I spent all Sunday playing scenario 4 trying to beat it with Friday and without the dog (literally from 10.30am to 10pm with a couple of stops for lunch and dinner).

With regards to the camp thing I cant find anything in the English rules about building the camp one tile away it just says turn the camp tile over when you build it?
 
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It is like this:

While reworking the rules I stumbled upon a strange phrase, which struck me as odd, and I asked. This is the strange sentence:
"When you build Shelter, discard the required resources, turn the Camp token upside down (to the Shelter side). The Island tile where you built the Shelter becomes your Camp tile."

The question I had was - how can a tile become the camp tile after building shelter? It already is the camp tile, since I build only on the camp tile, right?

The answer I was given was this:
"It is possible to build stuff somewhere other than the camp tile. It usually just is not necessary, or does make sense."

Exceptions to this situation, which I found, are
1. the crosses in scenario 2
2. the Shelter.

The second aspect can be important and interesting because, as per rules, the island tile on which the shelter is built becomes the new camp tile.

It is therefore possible to build shelter somewhere distant, and move camp over several tiles within the action phase, without having to wait until the Night Phase.

Especially since distance to the (original) camp tile is not limited. You can even perform actions much further away, you just have to add one additional action pawn for each tile you step further away from the camp (as per usual rules). This has also been confirmed - the example in there rulebook is not really good, as it seems to portray limitation of distance.

I once again asked to confirm, and got confirmation of the possibility to build shelter further away, and to move camp this way.


Apart from that, yes, it is true that camp can only be moved during the night phase, and only to an adjacent tile.

This whole information package has been confirmed to me, and will (so far) make it into the German rules...
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M.J.E. Hendriks
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Hmmm, not sure about this... I mean, really?!??! This opens up all kinds of new strategies in some of the scenarios and thus becomes really really gamey. I would expect the rule to be that you can ONLY move camp at night. Maybe I am too stuck on the rules as interpreted, though.
 
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MJE, the problem is, once you go over the rules with a fine-toothed comb, and try to guess most of possible interactions and interpretations, you stumble upon a lot of stuff.

There are lots of other minor details that either are not in the rules, or never had to be clarified.
For example:
Whereas Traps and Monsters are resolved immediately, Treasures are put on the Space for Future Ressources. However, any treasure that would give a character additional boni if the action is ongoing can be used immediately by the character who found it.
So if you have to resolve two traps and one treasure (hypothetically), and find the Whip, you can instantly ignore one of the two traps you will encounter. Likewise, if you have to resolve two monsters and two treasure, and find the helmet and the sabre, you can use both of these on fights that occur when you draw your monsters afterwards.
BUT the rucksack, once found, CANNOT be used immediately. It has to be understood that the Discovery tokens found with it are gained at the beginning of the Exploration phase.

But wait, there is more.

Several treasures can be used only by one character during a round. So the first to use it has it until the end of the round, for possible multiple uses. This is true for rifle, helmet, whip etc. This does not have to be declared during the planning phase, but can be decided in the instant they are needed. A character could even use whip, rifle, saber AND rapier at the same time. Doesn't make any sense, neither thematically nor mechanically, but it's theoretically possible.
But there is again, something that is similar, but different.
Both Sack and Basket are used once only by one character each round. They can be used by the same character, on the same action even. However, it has to be declared during the planning phase not only what character is using them, but also which ressource he intends to collect with them. If the action is unsuccessful, then the basket or sack CANNOT be used on another action during the same round.

There's still more:

Friday cannot be affected by adventure cards or Event cards. BUT Friday can resolve Mystery cards. Which in turn means that Friday can spend the night outside camp, and not bring anything he found back to the camp. Also, he is not affected by blowgun (of course) or Strange Illness. But then, what happens if he spends the night outside camp with the Strange Illness? No, it is not discarded, it is applied. My fix for this (which has been approved) was that, in this instance, the Illness is brought to camp at the beginning of next round, and will affect all in the subsequent night phase (i.e. one round later).

And still more:

Friday cannot be affected by Event cards, right?
However, if the Event card "Argument" is drawn, no player character can attempt an action together with Friday!

The list goes on.
This is not to rain on anyone's parade, or to complain about the rules. However, the work I put into the thing makes it clearer and clearer that a lot is left to the interpretation of the player, here. And this makes reworking the rules in a way that most questions are answered so that games are comparable in every single detail a nightmare.


What's more, I cannot even answer questions here anymore, without having to refer to some rule I have been told and know (or seem to know) is right. However, I can never be sure whether these have either made it into the Z-Man version, or are/can be answered by the Z-Man people with the same results. I even face the possibility of several rule versions with several "right" answers. So a German user who tries to find answers here, and gets answers from a Z-Man guy - will these answers be compatible to HIS copy? And vice versa?
I don't know. I sure hope so. And dread the day when a detail in hindsight is, once again, re-interpreted in a different way...
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Mark Stocks
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So does this logic using treasure you just found extend to items you've just built. So you could build an item that helps you gather or explore as long as you are the person taking both the build and other action. So for example you spent the morning making a spear which you took exploring in the afternoon just in case you were attacked, but no-one else could benefit from the increase in the weapons track until next turn?
 
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No.

Especially because
1. only specific treasure will be usable in these situations (as seen above, the backpack does not, the sabre does).
2. they are only usable during the rest of THIS PARTICULAR action.

If a character finds a helpful treasure during his first action, he therefore cannot use it during his second action.

Keep in mind that this can usually only happen during Exploration actions that involves drawing Mystery cards. There is no way you can get a treasure card before doing the rest of an action (especially, since this also does not extend to Discovery Tokens).* Meaning that a character cannot use a discovery token he just found for the rest of the action.

The differenciation between first and second action is the same with being forced to spend the night outside camp. When a card tells a character to do so, he places everything he got on his character sheet instead of the space for future ressources.
However, this is ONLY done for the things he got during this particular action. If the same character performs another action afterwards, the things he gets there are, once again, placed on the space for future ressources, like usual.

Also keep in mind that this, of course, ever only effects the character PERFORMING the action. And never characters assisting him.


*at least no way I can think of right now...



[Edit]
When the rules I am working on are final, I'll try to create a file with all the extra rules, differences and enhancements, when compared to the original rules, and upload it here...
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M.J.E. Hendriks
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Most of what you wrote though I would agree with and is the same as my interpretation would be. I only think the usage of something like a basket when gathering which fails wouldn't be so strict, and I could understand that too.

I'm just a little worried about a few of the rules question answers which seem to change up the game.

Most of the interpretations you just listed lie in the general expectation of how to solve them according to how the game plays. (I.e. you find something you can use it yourself on your adventures that day, but the rest of the camp must wait until the evening as you're gone till night).
 
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M.J.E. Hendriks
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I am not at home right now, but what is the difference between the sabre and the backpack card-text-wise?
 
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Backpack:
"Keep this card. Starting net round, when a player takes an Exploration Action, he additionally draws 2 [Discovery Token], chooses one and discards the other."

Whip:
"Keep this card. Starting next round, when a player draws Mystery cards and has to resolve [Trap], he can ignore 1 [Trap]."

Sabre:
"Keep this card. Each time a player Fights the Beast, he can use it to temporally get +3 [Weapon Strength]. For using the sabre, that player gets 1 [Wound]. [...]"

Protective Amulet:
"Keep this card. You can use it once to remove any token from the board. Discard after use."

Old Rifle:
"Keep this card. Any player can use it onve to temporarily get +3 [Weapon Strength]. Discard after use."

Helmet:
"Keep this card. Starting next round, each time a player Fights the Beast, he can ignore 1 [wound]."



I listed a few treasures to bring my point home.
Whereas you can use Whip, Sabre, Old Rifle and Helmet immediately after finding it (this specific character, that is), Backpack and Protective Amulet you cannot. It is, as you can see, not in the text - or the text is either misleading or downright wrong. It's also not in the item logic alone...
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Mark Stocks
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But the whip says "starting next round" so surely this is not the case here. Whereas this text isn't included so it could be used this round?
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I honestly don't get what you're saying with the second sentence.

Whereas regarding "starting next round" - well, either that is a mistake, or it pertains to any other use except regarding the action the character is performing.
...meaning: the official answer I got is "you can use it when you find it".

The important thing there, additionally, is that you can use the Whip's special ability immediately, but the +1 [Weapon Strength] you only get at the end of the Action Phase.

Confusing, isn't it?
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Mark Stocks
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Sorry, meant to say whereas this text isn't included on the Sabre so it can be used this round.
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Ah, okay. Alas, that has already been tackled in my previous post.


Unfortunately, it is not the text that is very much reliable, there. Or so I had to find out...
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Mark Stocks
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Anyway thanks for the help!
 
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No problem at all.
As I said, I'll try to list all the little details I accrued in a single file. I'll get them approved, and then will upload it here.
Could take a while, though...
 
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M.J.E. Hendriks
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This seems to be a consistency problem in wording rather than a rules variation. Why would the whip be usable but the sabre not, or vice versa. Personally I think you should simply allow the use of a found item in that action and any following action as you have it on your person. Other characters can use the item only after the finder returns to camp after the action phase.

The problem here of course lies with the weapon level. Can you already use a +3 or what not immediately or do you have to wait until you return to camp. If I see how other items are made (they are combined to make a super weapon - I'm not at home, but there are some examples of this with the better weapons), then I can understand the ruling that for a weapon level upgrade you'd have to wait until you're back in camp. Special abilities would be usable though.

Ultimately you have to remember that there are two sides of the story here - it needs to be thematically logical, and it needs to be correct according to the rules. Somehow those two need to be combined in such a way that it doesn't result in a huge variation of different interpretations for different items or what not.
 
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I understand where you are coming from.
It is, generally, my opinion that in the rules department, a game should have as few exceptions as possible. If all cards of a certain kind are used one way, but two are used differently, that creates problems.

However, it is neither my job nor my place to change the rules, or the rule interpretations that are given to me by Ignacy or Lukasz. I take them, maybe question them, but ultimately I will use them as they are explained to me.

What feels more intuitive, is better, more thematic, more relevant, or more logical, is in the end of no concern to me. That is something that you lot will have to change with house rules.

But as a player of this game, I quite often stand where you stand, too.
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Dumon wrote:
I understand where you are coming from.
It is, generally, my opinion that in the rules department, a game should have as few exceptions as possible. If all cards of a certain kind are used one way, but two are used differently, that creates problems.

However, it is neither my job nor my place to change the rules, or the rule interpretations that are given to me by Ignacy or Lukasz. I take them, maybe question them, but ultimately I will use them as they are explained to me.

What feels more intuitive, is better, more thematic, more relevant, or more logical, is in the end of no concern to me. That is something that you lot will have to change with house rules.

But as a player of this game, I quite often stand where you stand, too.


No worries, none of what I said was a direct criticism on you - it was more part of a general discussion hoping to push the rules in a certain way. I totally understand that you are not the one deciding. :)
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Dumon wrote:
Which in turn means that Friday can spend the night outside camp, and not bring anything he found back to the camp.


Good morning,

Why Friday can't bring anything he found to the camp ?

Thanks
 
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This sentence, read out of context, is wrong, of course.

Within the context of the paragraph it was written, it simply means that if an action makes Friday draw a Mystery Card that lets him spend the night outside of camp (only the Net can make him do so), anything he got DURING THIS ACTION he will not bring back to camp UNTIL the next morning.

It is the same as with all player pawns, I just repeated it, and in the context it made sense...
 
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