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Subject: GOP mouthpieces push to have Dzhokhar Tsarnaev labeled enemy combatant rss

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Marc P
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Lindsay Graham, John McCain, and some lesser known Republican politicians feel that we should bend the law and invoke rules of war on this individual. Personally, I think that we need to get back to trying our criminals in courts. What do you say?
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slowcorner wrote:
Lindsay Graham, John McCain, and some lesser known Republican politicians feel that we should bend the law and invoke rules of war on this individual. Personally, I think that we need to get back to trying our criminals in courts. What do you say?



Lindsay Graham=theater

likes to hear his own voice and be on tv

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slowcorner wrote:
Lindsay Graham, John McCain, and some lesser known Republican politicians feel that we should bend the law and invoke rules of war on this individual. Personally, I think that we need to get back to trying our criminals in courts. What do you say?


McCain doesn't know what he's talking about and Graham should know better, but grandstanding overrules reason.
 
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slowcorner wrote:
Lindsay Graham, John McCain, and some lesser known Republican politicians feel that we should bend the law and invoke rules of war on this individual. Personally, I think that we need to get back to trying our criminals in courts. What do you say?


I say you should address your concerns to the Obama administration. Last time I checked it was them who was withholding the decision to Mirandise the terrorist and drop him into the justice system. In fact, there are literally scores of "mouthpieces" both democrat and republican who want this guy tried as an enemy combatant.

So. Why did you single out just two republicans? I thought you were above the tactics most of RSP uses in order to draw out the other side and hook them. Guess not.
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There's already a thread on Miranda, and the Obama administration hasn't said they want to make him an enemy combatant.
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jmilum wrote:
There's already a thread on Miranda, and the Obama administration hasn't said they want to make him an enemy combatant.


From CNN today:

Quote:
Should bomber suspect be questioned without a lawyer?

For now, the government is invoking the public safety exception, a designation that allows investigators to question Tsarnaev without reading him his Miranda rights, a Justice Department official told CNN on condition of anonymity.
In ordinary cases, a suspect is told by police he has the right to remain silent and he has the right to a lawyer.


So essentially, the administration and the media are again working hand-in-hand to inflame the gullible, the simple minded and the plain stupid. CNN and every paper (in their online editions) blare out two republicans names in bold and yet don't even question who in "the government" is actually proceeding as if the terrorist (so far) is an enemy combatant.

I'm slowly becoming convinced that the average liberal in America is so slaved to the media that they've lost almost all their capacity to think.
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I'm not sure I have a problem with this approach. I'm not certain I'd group a terrorist (even a "wanna be" terrorist) with a garden variety "criminal". If we accept the notion that there is a sub-niche of the Islamic world that is "at war" (i.e. "jihad") with the West in general and the USA in specific, as witnessed by the acts of Al Qaeda, stretching back to the 1990's, and if we assume for the moment that this 19-year old is connected to this 'war effort', then it follows that it may be right to consider him not a 'criminal' per se, but an 'enemy combatant'. Just because the enemy doesn't wear a uniform doesn't make him any less of an enemy. This was true of the Viet Cong, and it's true of Al Qaeda. By design, Al Qaeda wished to use asymmetrical warfare, such as civilian-clad decentralized franchises (cells) as their foot soldiers, as this allows them easy access to "soft targets" and avoids a "stand up fight", which the jihadists would lose hands down.

Why should the USA allow their enemy to operate in this fashion? Why shouldn't such individuals, when captured, be treated as enemy combatants?

(obligatory note: Please keep in mind, I am specifically referring to those groups and individuals such as al Qaeda that have declared their hostile intentions towards the West and the US. I am not indicting the entire Muslim culture/religion. There, that's out of the way).
 
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DWTripp wrote:
So essentially, the administration and the media are again working hand-in-hand to inflame the gullible, the simple minded and the plain stupid. CNN and every paper (in their online editions) blare out two republicans names in bold and yet don't even question who in "the government" is actually proceeding as if the terrorist (so far) is an enemy combatant.


This isn't entirely accurate. Enemy combatant treatment explicitly avoids the American court system in favour of military tribunals; the public safety exemption to Miranda doesn't mean that the government can necessarily then use the information gleaned from interrogation without a lawyer (presumably there is enough evidence without the interrogative evidence to convict Tsarnaev in any case) - but if such conviction takes place in the American justice system, then he's certainly not being treated as an enemy combatant. The GOP pols in question are requesting enemy combatant status, which would mean a military tribunal.

None of which means he shouldn't be read his Miranda rights and have a lawyer present, because of course he should.
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Using the public safety exception to Miranda is not the same as treating him as an enemy combatant. I think you already knew that though, you are just trying your usual tactic of conflating issues together. If you want to talk about the Miranda deal, there's another thread for that. If you actually want to discuss the actual OP's issue, try to stay on topic if possible.
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The whole thing is stupid at this point. If there were some unexploded ordinance it would have happened. Just Mirandize his ass and be done with it. He's 19 freaking years old. The chances of him being a mastermind in some plot is miniscule.
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she2 wrote:
The whole thing is stupid at this point. If there were some unexploded ordinance it would have happened. Just Mirandize his ass and be done with it. He's 19 freaking years old. The chances of him being a mastermind in some plot is miniscule.


This is the crux of the matter, I believe. If the young men were part of a jihadist conspiracy, then indeed they might well be combatants. On the other hand, if this is, as someone else suggested, their version of a Marilyn Manson escapde, then I'd consider them American criminals.

When the surviving brother recovers, we'll see if there were other handlers in the background.

I'm totally guessing that the older brother went off the reserve and subsequently corrupted his younger sibling.
.
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she2 wrote:
The whole thing is stupid at this point. If there were some unexploded ordinance it would have happened. Just Mirandize his ass and be done with it. He's 19 freaking years old. The chances of him being a mastermind in some plot is miniscule.


There are many ordinances against misspelling ordnance, and if you violate them then we have no choice but to treat you as an enemy of the State, and force you to read Ibsen plays until you cry.
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The Steak Fairy
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I can get away with not telling you how to spell minuscule, because I only learned that from Golux13 in the past several months, so it's really not mine to correct.
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MisterCranky wrote:
she2 wrote:
The whole thing is stupid at this point. If there were some unexploded ordinance it would have happened. Just Mirandize his ass and be done with it. He's 19 freaking years old. The chances of him being a mastermind in some plot is miniscule.


There are many ordinances against misspelling ordnance, and if you violate them then we have no choice but to treat you as an enemy of the State, and force you to read Ibsen plays until you cry.


I fart in your general direction. Is that enough ordnance for you?

Also, it's not a minuscule fart if that makes any difference.
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Hey, come on, you can't expect to skate on these important issues! Meanwhile, GOP BAD! DOJ GOOD! (Just in case Tripp is reading, I need to fuel his inanity a bit.)
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I can't help if you keep leaving these staight man woman lines for me. Also, fuck Obama.
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I am SO bored. I hope this kid implicates a whole bunch of people in an actual Jihad conspiracy before the public safety exception to Miranda expires! If any of them have user accounts at BGG, that would be even better.
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DWTripp wrote:


So essentially, the administration and the media are again working hand-in-hand to inflame the gullible, the simple minded and the plain stupid.



they got you worked up didnt they?
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slowcorner wrote:
Lindsay Graham, John McCain, and some lesser known Republican politicians feel that we should bend the law and invoke rules of war on this individual. Personally, I think that we need to get back to trying our criminals in courts. What do you say?


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desertfox2004 wrote:
Why shouldn't such individuals, when captured, be treated as enemy combatants?


For the simple reason that we usually hold dear the concept that you are innocent until proven guilty. You can't strip someones rights away "in case" they are in Al Qaeda. You should have to have probable cause and being muslim shouldn't be probable cause and that probable cause should be presented to a 3rd party (i.e. judge). If you give the government the power to apprehend, question and prosecute people outside the limits of the protections we have to protect the innocent, then everyone is in danger of being pulled into the "combatant" justice system where there are few rights and protections for the accused (notice I didn't say the guilty).

If, after investigation, it is found that the accused does have ties to militant enemies of the USA, then you can start talking about making him a POW and having him placed in that justice system with it's particular rights and protections. This whole "enemy combatant" definition is scary because it gives the administration, regardless of party, the power to subvert the Constitution and that is just asking for abuse. I'm not willing to give up that protection to make the Justice Department's job easier in cases like this. I am willing to pay the higher taxes to pay for any extra work it takes for them to do their job within the framework of the Constitution.

I'm not saying this guy is innocent at all. I'm just saying I don't want to destroy our system of government to expediently process him.
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If it wasn't for that damn Rand Paul they could have just drone striked his ass. Lindsey Graham was calling for drones to be used.
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jmilum wrote:
If it wasn't for that damn Rand Paul they could have just drone striked his ass. Lindsey Graham was calling for drones to be used.


no lindsay graham was calling for lindsay graham to be relevant about anything
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As MGK and Jeremy pointed out, I was referring to trial by tribunal, not Miranda rights. I wonder if doing it one way versus another would help the US in any attempts to have the father shipped over for questioning. If the Russians would allow it, that is. My guess is that placing him in a special legal category gives the US some kind of advantage in investigating the case further (besides, you know, torture), or it's just theater.

And Tripp, I don't believe that this administration is much better than the last with regards to human rights in the military sphere. I gave up on that hope a long time ago.
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TheChin! wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Why shouldn't such individuals, when captured, be treated as enemy combatants?


For the simple reason that we usually hold dear the concept that you are innocent until proven guilty. You can't strip someones rights away "in case" they are in Al Qaeda. You should have to have probable cause and being muslim shouldn't be probable cause and that probable cause should be presented to a 3rd party (i.e. judge). If you give the government the power to apprehend, question and prosecute people outside the limits of the protections we have to protect the innocent, then everyone is in danger of being pulled into the "combatant" justice system where there are few rights and protections for the accused (notice I didn't say the guilty).

If, after investigation, it is found that the accused does have ties to militant enemies of the USA, then you can start talking about making him a POW and having him placed in that justice system with it's particular rights and protections. This whole "enemy combatant" definition is scary because it gives the administration, regardless of party, the power to subvert the Constitution and that is just asking for abuse. I'm not willing to give up that protection to make the Justice Department's job easier in cases like this. I am willing to pay the higher taxes to pay for any extra work it takes for them to do their job within the framework of the Constitution.

I'm not saying this guy is innocent at all. I'm just saying I don't want to destroy our system of government to expediently process him.


Did US Marines on Iwo Jima have to "arrest" Japanese infantrymen, or treat them as enemy soldiers? My point is this - are terrorists, such as this 19 year old, closer to this:
A.

...or this...
B.


If we decide this kid is more like "A", then your point is well taken. If we decide "B", then I'd suggest that "enemy combatant" is not a bad approach to dealing with him. Again, in this current conflict between the West and the jihadists, the enemy is not doing us the favor of dressing up in uniforms in order to make our decisions easy regarding how to confront them when we find them. It is a definite advantage to them.
 
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Political terrorism in the US isn't something new and civilian courts have dealt with it. The Military court system has not worked well lately in these cases even when it seems appropriate.
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