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Subject: Spotting clarification with movement? rss

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Pete G
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Daventry
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Played the demo map last night with my wife and a few questions came up vs spotting, movement and if you can fire?

1. An enemy unit is in a building and has not moved. A leader is behind a building so no line of sight. Can the leader (or a normal unit without assault move) move so they have line of sight then during the movement phase (or at the end) attempt to spot the enemy so a spotted marker can be placed?

2. Can you assault move from no line of sight to line of sight of an enemy in a building. Carry out a spot check then fire? This is assuming you don't move next to the enemy?

3. Similar to the above can you assault move then spot then shoot if you had line of sight through degrading terrain at the start of the move? Basically unit wants to move around degrading terrain for good shot. Prob not the best tactics in case spotting fails however it did come up.

4. Finally can you spot check a unit in line of sight then assault move to get into weapon range and fire? If so there is only the -2 for assault move and not for ops complete?

Spent hours searching but couldn't find an answer. The FAQ didn't seem to explain it for my poor head either.

Thanks.
 
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Mark
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The answers are easy to understand, but difficult to prove. So bear with me. Basically, the answer to all four questions is No. Why? Because a unit (squad, Leader, hero, vehicle, etc...) can only make a spotting attempt BEFORE it does any other action. It cannot to spot after moving or firing, etc...

Here is the relevant rule:

10.1 Spotting
Spotting attempts do not require an impulse, but only one attempt may be made per friendly impulse, and a unit attempting to Spot is marked with an Ops Complete marker (helicopters excepted –see 19.3) regardless of the result of the attempt. Units marked with Fire, Move, Low Crawl, Ops Complete, or Assault Move markers may not Spot.


Let's break that paragraph down. Spotting does not require an impulse. A Leader could attempt to spot, and be marked Ops Complete. Then, another eligible unit on the same side could take an impulse.

Only ONE spotting attempt per impulse.

Finally, "Units marked with Fire, Move, Low Crawl, Ops Complete, or Assault Move markers may not Spot." Units are given markers BEFORE they take the associated action. That means, the spotting attempt must come first, before the unit does anything else, like Move or Assault Move. How do I know the marker comes before movement?

4.0 Operations Phase
Mark units that move with a Move, Low Crawl, Assault Move marker (see Movement), and those that fire with a Fired marker. Those units may not be used again this turn except to defend in Melee.


What about Assault Move?

6.1 Assault Movement
These units’ intentions are declared at the beginning of their impulse and they are marked with an Assault Move marker.


So, in all of your questions, the answer is no because the unit(s) cannot move and then make a spotting attempt.

One last item, though. A hex and all units in the hex are spotted if the hex meets any of the spotting criteria. One of those is an adjacent enemy unit. So, a unit could move adjacent to an enemy occupied hex, and would then cause that hex and the units in it to be spotted.

Hope this helps. Enjoy the game.
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Kev.
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IF we took all the answers the the questions from all these clarifications we would have a rule book re write done.
 
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p55carroll
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hipshot wrote:
IF we took all the answers the the questions from all these clarifications we would have a rule book re write done.

Nope. We'd just have all the data needed. It'd still take a lot of work to rewrite the rules.

And IMO, the rules aren't bad as they are. I can see room for improvement, but most everything is there, and it all works.
 
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Mark
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Dammit, SJ posted while I was writing my thesis, at 1 AM! If I had seen his post I would have kept my trap shut. He has the moral authority to answer without references. I feel obligated to provide arcane evidence. I also like to assure folks asking questions the answers are there, and they are not at fault if they can't easily infer the answers from the rules.

The rules are good, and have been refined over the years. But, they have a few rough patches (for me):

The opposed die rolls with dueling modifiers are not user friendly. Especially as they flip-flop between high numbers being good or bad, depending on Direct Fire or Ordinance Fire Tables.

LOS is fairly standard and easy to follow (elevations take a little extra effort). Spotting is a counter-intuitive, abstract game function that impacts tactics and game flow. It's best understood by default (i.e., instead of any unit is spotted unless it is in cover, the opposite is true. NO unit/hex is spotted unless it meets spotting criteria). It's also hard to understand how spotting "resets" between turns. It's somewhat reasonable that a squad could fire and then duck behind cover. It's not obvious why a Tiger tank in tall grass that fired last turn is now unspotted this turn.

And, helicopters. I get helicopters, they are so much faster than infantry and vehicles they operate on a different timescale. They can do everything in one turn, they just can't do a few specific things twice in one turn. Even knowing that, I always have to refer to the rules when helicopters are in play.

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Mark
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For stepping on SJ's toes, and to honor the OP's wife who is a gamer, I offer this ALL FREE components scenario:


The Crazies
Ogden Marsh, Pierce County, Iowa. Motto: "The friendliest place on Earth"
A secret military cargo plane crashes upstream of a small town’s water supply. The plane carries barrels of a biological weapon known as “Trixie.” Before long, peaceful citizens of the town are infected, turning homicidal, killing friends and family. The military is called in with orders to shoot on sight.
Note: The counters and rules for this scenario are available online from “The Good Ole Boys” scenario and The Forgotten Heroes Free Demo.
Use Map #15 from the Band of Heroes (Vierville) Demo. Top of the map (hexrow “1”) is the North edge.

Survivors (from “The Good Ole Boys” scenario)
Set up first in the woods hexes in the lower left corner of the map.
4 x 1-3-4
1 x Eckert (with Bull Skill Card from Forgotten Heroes Demo)

Iowa National Guard* from Forgotten Heroes Demo)
Set up second in or adjacent to the building in hexes 15I2 and 15J3.
5 x 2-6-4
1 x Lt. Jenson (Charismatic Skill Card from Forgotten Heroes Demo)
1 x Medic
2 x M60

Scenario Length: Six turns. Roll for Initiative on Turn One. (See SSR #1).

Victory Conditions: Survivors win if they exit four or more COUNTERS from the north and/or east edge of the map (Costs +1MP to exit the map). Otherwise, National Guard wins.

SSR #1: On any turn that the National Guard player’s Initiative roll is an even number, one or more guardsmen succumb to the infection and become “The Crazies.” Randomly choose a squad (those stacked with the Medic are immune). That squad immediately “attacks” itself with its inherent Firepower plus the Initiative die roll (i.e. FP + Initiative die roll number vs 1D6 target die roll). Ignore ALL die roll modifiers and do not fire support weapons. After the results of the attack are complete, the squad receives a Fired marker and cannot take another impulse this turn. It behaves normally after the self-attack. Or does it?

SSR#2: National Guardsmen do not want to risk being infected by Survivors. The National Guard will NOT enter Melee with a Good Order Survior unit. Survivors have no Melee restrictions.

SSR#3: All Survivors can self-rally, and always get the +2 to their morale check, even if not in terrain with a positive modifier.

* I don’t even know if Iowa has a National Guard. I do know the National Guard contributes greatly to the nation’s military efforts. However, “The Crazies” movies are all about government incompetence and indifference. It’s a theme too rich to let reality get in the way.
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Pete G
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SJ and Mark,
Wow that was a brilliant and concise description. Totally clear in our heads now.
Thanks for the offer re: more advice I'm sure once we move onto ordnance etc we'll be trying to power game each other again and more questions will arise.

Thanks for the bonus mission as well. Going to play Vierville a few more times then will give this a go.

We were surprised how good the counters we printed out are. Big thumbs up to LnL for supplying an easy scenario and pdf to print.

Yes very lucky that my wife will play games with me (board, war, cards).
She's a star to put up with me although you really don't want to see how competitive she is at Netrunner. That game is stress-city!
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