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John Prados' Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: alliances and war : Minor countries clients rss

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robin mong
France
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I think everybody ran into these situations, so I'm curious to know how you play it :

5.52 : a minor country may not declare war on a client nation (box 8 to 10)

16.31 : when a power is "hostile" to a minor country and rolls a 1, minor declares war on the major power and all of its allies (exception : 5.52)
The major power allies MUST pay 5 BRP each to declare on this minor.


Conclusion with a few examples :

1/ Romania is a French client. France and USSR are allied against Germany. Soviet player is in the 1 box and rolls a 1.
=> Nothing happens. Since Romania would be at war with France and is not allowed to because of its Client status.
Romania would declare war on the USSR as soon as France is no longer client (including if France surrenders ), unless Britain becomes a client to. But the Soviet marker is removed anyways and cannot get out of this 1 box anymore.

2/ If in the same case, Romania was not a French or British client, Romania would declare on USSR (no BRP cost for any of them), and Britain and France would pay 5 BRP each to declare on Romania.

3/ Romania is not client to anyone and declares war on the USSR. Then Britain later becomes client. Then Britain MUST declare war on the USSR for 15 BRP

4/ A very common outcome I believe : Spain.
Spain is allied to Italy (likely by declaring war on Portugal, a very stupid rule that I suggest deleting, but let say we played it)
Spain is also a French client (because France declared on the USSR maybe)
Italy declares war on Britain (only) for 15 BRP. Then because of the special and incomplete alliance between France and England, Spain would be able to declare on Britain and remain a french client.

So basically there is no diplomatic way to keep Spain out of the war, it will always join the Axis unless Italy fails it's diplomacy roll, but if France makes the effort, at least they can avoid Spanish troops in their back. (we can start another discussion about whether it is a good idea or not for the Axis, I would like you opinion on my understanding of the alliances rules)

 
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Colin Raitt
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I agree with what you say for 1 and 2. For point 3 I think it is Russia who declares on Britain and pays the 15 BRP. Rule 5.47 last two paragraphs.

I would tend to argue against your conclusion of point 4. True, the British French alliance is quite loose and the minor doesn't need to declare on France just because she's declared on Britain under 5.21 2nd paragraph. In fact 5.52 says a minor can't declare on an ally of a client.

A concerted diplomatic slander campaign by all 3 allies probably drive Italy down with Spain. Under 16.21 the diplomatic effect of declaring on Portugal won't take effect till the diplomacy phase of the next season giving an extra round to fight back. Spain at war with the UK raises the problem of Gibraltar. Under 24.1 Spanish troops can't enter it.
 
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robin mong
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Yes you are right about point 3. Russia should pay the 15 BRP.


And you may be right for Spain as well after all. It is not very clear because 16.31 says that " Major power on which the minor declared war must declare war on it. And so must all of the Major power's allies (exception : 5.21, which is the France-Britain alliance).

So that means France would not have to delcare on Spain if Spain allies with Italy and declares on Britain.

BUT as you noticed, 5.52 forbids Spain from declaring on Britain since (or if) it is a French ally, even a loose one.

That leads to much better conclusions I think (and also means we have played dozens of games wrong with the old version...who cares...).

So Basically, France should become client with Spain as soon as they can (the quickest way being to declare on USSR), and Britain should become client by the time France surrenders if they want to avoid fighting Spain.

As for Gibraltar, Spanish may not be able to enter it, but they can attack it and much more importantly, German and Italian tanks may use Spain as a base to take it
 
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Adolfo perez
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In our last game we lived a similar situation:
- GB had Turkey as a Client.
- Russia had Turkey on hostile.
- Russia failed the diplomacy roll for Turkey and this country declared war on Russia.
- GB must declare war on Russia. Russia became allied to Germany.

Game over !! cry

The initial situation of Russia make Great Britain own clients and allies a dangerous treat for himself.
 
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