Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Small World» Forums » Rules

Subject: Pillaging ruling rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Roger McKay
Canada
Bedford
Nova Scotia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Does "non-empty" mean no enemies, or no counters at all?

EDIT:

I should correct that to read: does "empty" mean...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Wheelock
Canada
Woodstock
New Brunswick
flag msg tools
badge
David Malki drew this!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's not correct. A mountain token is not the same as a race token.

See this thread.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Klinck
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Note that a mountain is not a "counter".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
RogMcK wrote:
Does "non-empty" mean no enemies, or no counters at all?

EDIT:

I should correct that to read: does "empty" mean...

"Empty" was a poor choice of words for them. They should have used "occupied" and "unoccupied" and it would have been self-explanatory. Substitute those words and it should be clear.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proto Persona
United States
N Richland Hills
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
RogMcK wrote:
Does "non-empty" mean no enemies, or no counters at all?

EDIT:

I should correct that to read: does "empty" mean...

"Empty" was a poor choice of words for them. They should have used "occupied" and "unoccupied" and it would have been self-explanatory. Substitute those words and it should be clear.
Some people would say that a mountain token occupies the territory it's in. I think DoW did the best they could. I take "non-empty" to mean there are either active or in-decline race tokens present in that space. Seems like everyone else here does too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Proto Persona wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
RogMcK wrote:
Does "non-empty" mean no enemies, or no counters at all?

EDIT:

I should correct that to read: does "empty" mean...

"Empty" was a poor choice of words for them. They should have used "occupied" and "unoccupied" and it would have been self-explanatory. Substitute those words and it should be clear.
Some people would say that a mountain token occupies the territory it's in. I think DoW did the best they could. I take "non-empty" to mean there are either active or in-decline race tokens present in that space. Seems like everyone else here does too.

"Occupy" has a connotation that something living is doing the occupying. To be a resident of, to dwell in, to take control of. It also has a connotation that it is temporary if you force it out. It is very hard to get a mountain to unoccupy a region. "Empty" is more generic and less-precise. "Non-empty" is a term I have not heard in normal usage, making it that much more ambiguous.

I don't agree they did the "best they could" - there was a better word choice, or they could have defined "non-empty" to make it completely clear. It is not like it cost them to use a different word or there was a vocab shortage.

Besides race/power specific questions, this seems to be one of the most frequently asked question. I understand what DOW was getting at (though it gave me pause) but many people do not, which is the reason this thread was created and similar ones created several times in the past.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David S.
msg tools
mbmbmb
iklinck wrote:
Note that a mountain is not a "counter".


Maybe it's obvious to some, but for me, the mountain tokens are an easy visual reminder that it takes that many more race tokens to take that region.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proto Persona
United States
N Richland Hills
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
"Occupy" has a connotation that something living is doing the occupying. To be a resident of, to dwell in, to take control of. It also has a connotation that it is temporary if you force it out. It is very hard to get a mountain to unoccupy a region. "Empty" is more generic and less-precise. "Non-empty" is a term I have not heard in normal usage, making it that much more ambiguous.

I don't agree they did the "best they could" - there was a better word choice, or they could have defined "non-empty" to make it completely clear. It is not like it cost them to use a different word or there was a vocab shortage.

Besides race/power specific questions, this seems to be one of the most frequently asked question. I understand what DOW was getting at (though it gave me pause) but many people do not, which is the reason this thread was created and similar ones created several times in the past.
In the common usage of the word I've experienced it hasn't carried the "living" connotation. My context comes from a general gaming background, including things like video games. Many games I've played use that exact terminology to describe non-living obstacles, such as a table that is occupying a space. My argument was more that there would probably have been this confusion using either term.

I agree with you that no matter what words they used they should have clearly defined the term to explicitly mean empty of race tokens.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Danny Mack
United States
Menifee
California
flag msg tools
designer
Lefty / Happily Married / Parent of 2 Girls / Christian / Yucata User
badge
Smack dat Ghoulie, Mr. Trolla!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not really sure why this is turning into a debate (except that the OP has not ever checked back into the thread to say whether the question he has asked has been answered to his satisfaction)?

Brian's answer is straightforward and simple, and he's right. Furthermore, this has been asked-and-answered (seemingly my mantra phrase on the SW forums) more than once.

"Non-empty" means occupied. It was a horrible word choice, presumably because many of the people involved in the development of the game (the designer included) either do not speak English or are not native speakers. Things should not be defined in negative terms (although sometimes I fall into that trap myself.) Someone should have asked themselves, "What is a more simple, one-word term for 'non-empty'? If something is 'non-empty', then it is...? Occupied. (Like a bathroom stall, like a seat on an airplane, like a house.) One could argue that there are usages which include inanimate objects, like mountains occupying geographic space, etc. But c'mon...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proto Persona
United States
N Richland Hills
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, you're right. I got caught up in semantics I guess. Sorry if it seemed like I was taking this too seriously.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roger McKay
Canada
Bedford
Nova Scotia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bandit_boy7 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is turning into a debate (except that the OP has not ever checked back into the thread to say whether the question he has asked has been answered to his satisfaction)?

Not exactly. There seems to be some difference of opinion.
Quote:



Brian's answer is straightforward and simple, and he's right. Furthermore, this has been asked-and-answered (seemingly my mantra phrase on the SW forums) more than once.

"Non-empty" means occupied. It was a horrible word choice, presumably because many of the people involved in the development of the game (the designer included) either do not speak English or are not native speakers. Things should not be defined in negative terms (although sometimes I fall into that trap myself.) Someone should have asked themselves, "What is a more simple, one-word term for 'non-empty'? If something is 'non-empty', then it is...? Occupied. (Like a bathroom stall, like a seat on an airplane, like a house.) One could argue that there are usages which include inanimate objects, like mountains occupying geographic space, etc. But c'mon...

I would have used the term "unpopulated" myself.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
RogMcK wrote:
I would have used the term "unpopulated" myself.

I could have accepted that. Maybe even "vacant." The point, is "empty" is incorrect and "non-empty" is a non-word. And while there still may have been questions, there would have been a lot less. This really is the definition of an FAQ and it didn't need to be.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mango Man
United Kingdom
Cowes
Isle of Wight
flag msg tools
That's going to happen, I don't think.
badge
Will I shut the holy hell up?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Page 8 of the rules states:

A Region is deemed non-empty if, and only if, it contains at least one Lost Tribe or Race token (Active or In Decline). A Region that contains a Mountain marker but no Lost Tribe or enemy Race token is considered empty.
3 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proto Persona
United States
N Richland Hills
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pricero1 wrote:
Page 8 of the rules states:

A Region is deemed non-empty if, and only if, it contains at least one Lost Tribe or Race token (Active or In Decline). A Region that contains a Mountain marker but no Lost Tribe or enemy Race token is considered empty.
Huh, well I'll be. Must have glossed over that. Sorry for the argument brian. I should have checked that in the first place I guess.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Proto Persona wrote:
pricero1 wrote:
Page 8 of the rules states:

A Region is deemed non-empty if, and only if, it contains at least one Lost Tribe or Race token (Active or In Decline). A Region that contains a Mountain marker but no Lost Tribe or enemy Race token is considered empty.
Huh, well I'll be. Must have glossed over that. Sorry for the argument brian. I should have checked that in the first place I guess.

I forgot about it too. I thought it was actually missing from the rule book and clarified later. I'll need to check my copy when I get home.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Danny Mack
United States
Menifee
California
flag msg tools
designer
Lefty / Happily Married / Parent of 2 Girls / Christian / Yucata User
badge
Smack dat Ghoulie, Mr. Trolla!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pricero1 wrote:
Page 8 of the rules states:

A Region is deemed non-empty if, and only if, it contains at least one Lost Tribe or Race token (Active or In Decline). A Region that contains a Mountain marker but no Lost Tribe or enemy Race token is considered empty.

"Non-Empty" is still a "Non-Word."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proto Persona
United States
N Richland Hills
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bandit_boy7 wrote:
pricero1 wrote:
Page 8 of the rules states:

A Region is deemed non-empty if, and only if, it contains at least one Lost Tribe or Race token (Active or In Decline). A Region that contains a Mountain marker but no Lost Tribe or enemy Race token is considered empty.

"Non-Empty" is still a "Non-Word."
But a "well defined" "non-word". ^_^
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.