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Subject: Cell Portal and Sensei rss

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Jeremy Larner
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I admit this is an edge case and unlikely to come up in actual play, but we did have a similar scenario occur in a game I played last week:

A remote server contains the following ice, from innermost to outermost: Cell Portal, Neural Katana, Sensei. The runner runs the remote, and has no code gate breaker, and so chooses not to break Sensei. She hits Neural Katana, and uses Mimic to break both subroutines. She then encounters Cell Portal, which she cannot break, and so the subroutine fires. She returns to the first piece of ice, and encounters Sensei again. Again, she chooses not to break it (I don't think Sensei adds a subroutine to itself, correct?). She then encounters Neural Katana again. How many credits does she need to pay to break all its subroutines?
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Each time the Runner fails to break Sensei, NK and CP each gain one ETR subroutine.
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Jeremy Larner
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But when does the ETR subroutine disappear? At the end of the encounter or the end of the run? Can a single Sensei generate several effects which each add an ETR subroutine to subsequent pieces of ice?

Depending on the answers to the above, the cost to break Neural Katana the second time could be 2, 3 or 4.
 
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William Frank
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Jadiel wrote:
But when does the ETR subroutine disappear? At the end of the encounter or the end of the run? Can a single Sensei generate several effects which each add an ETR subroutine to subsequent pieces of ice?

Depending on the answers to the above, the cost to break Neural Katana the second time could be 2, 3 or 4.


The card reads:

Sensei wrote:
For the remainder of this run, each piece of ice encountered except Sensei gains "[Subroutine] End the run" after all its other subroutines.


Meaning that the second time the runner encounters Neural Katana, it has three subroutines: do 4 3 Net Damage, end the run, and end the run.
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Scott Hartman
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every time the runner fails to break Sensei it would add another ETR subroutine to each ice after it, those subroutines last until the run ends.
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Mad Scientist Philip von Doomula
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ninjaninja

Sensei reads:

Quote:
For the remainder of this run, each piece of ice encountered except Sensei gains "[Subroutine] End the run" after all its other subroutines.


The 1st time you encounter NK it gains a ETR which according to Sensei remains until the run ends.

The 2nd time you encounter NK after passing through Sensei a second time there would still be the 1st ETR (since it remains until the run ends) and now there would be a 2nd ETR because you trigger Sensei for a second time.

Each time you go through this process there would be an additional ETR sub added until the run ends.

This my interpretation which may or may not be right.

 
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Contig the fallen
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(Though note that Neural Katana only does 3 Net Damage) -- at some point it may make sense to jack out and simply run the server again, if possible.
 
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William Frank
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contiguity wrote:
(Though note that Neural Katana only does 3 Net Damage)


Whoops.
 
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Joseph Courtight
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If one did not break cell portal it would end the run.
 
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Mad Scientist Philip von Doomula
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Dalek5 wrote:
If one did not break cell portal it would end the run.




Cell Portal's first sub triggers before any of the added ETR subs.
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Steven Steck
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Quote:
[Subroutine] For the remainder of this run, each piece of ice encountered except Sensei gains "[Subroutine] End the run" after all its other subroutines.


I would think that after Sensei is encountered the second time, it will add TWO more ETR subs to each ICE. (One for each time the sensi subroutine executed).

So if Neural Katana is encountered a second time, it will have 3 ETR subroutines, costing a total to 4 to break.

A case could be made that since the Sensei subroutine won't stack with itself, but I see no reason that the first subroutine isn't still active.


EDIT: Rereading the posts before I made my statement makes me ask the question: WHEN does Sensei add the ETR subroutines. When it executes, or when the runner encounters a piece of ICE? This may affect whether the subroutine stacks with itself.
 
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David Jensen
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Neural Katana gains three ETRs the second time it's passed.

It has one from the first Sensei. It gains a second from the first Sensei and it gains a third from the second Sensei.

This occurs becuase the text reads; "... For the remainder of this run each piece of ice gains ... "


Note: Sensei never gains an ETR.

Also, note that anyone who wanted to by pass Cell Portal would have to pay to break it with the subs if Cell Portals first Sub Routine never fired.
 
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William Frank
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notyetsuperman wrote:
Neural Katana gains three ETRs the second time it's passed.

It has one from the first Sensei. It gains a second from the first Sensei and it gains a third from the second Sensei.

This occurs becuase the text reads; "... For the remainder of this run each piece of ice gains ... "


It took me a while to get this argument, and I still don't buy it, but here is the argument stated cleanly:

Runner encounters a Sensei, which effectively sets up a condition: "whenever you encounter a piece of ice, it gains a subroutine." Runner then hits the Katana, and the condition goes "Ah! Ice!" As a result, the Katana now has "Deal, ETR."

After the Cell Portal (which, yes, now has an ETR subroutine after the redirection, but let's not worry about that), the Runner encounters Sensei. The condition does nothing because the condition says "no Senseis," but the Sensei sets up another condition: "whenever you encounter a piece of ice, it gains a subroutine."

Now the Runner encounters a Neural Katana (that happens to have an ETR). The first condition goes, "Ah! Ice!" and the second condition goes "Ah! Ice!" As a result the Katana gains two more ETRs.

I don't buy it because I think the first condition would actually say "Ah! I've already hit this ice," because that's how I read "each piece of ice you encounter."

But I see the argument sufficiently to suggest it's worth submitting the question to FFG.
 
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Micheal Keane
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It's worth pointing out that while Sensei only doesn't add an ETRR to itself, it still adds an ETRR to any other Senseis on the fort.

When a card refers to itself by name, it's only referring to that particular copy.
 
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Frank Brooks
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ffaristocrat wrote:
It's worth pointing out that while Sensei only doesn't add an ETRR to itself, it still adds an ETRR to any other Senseis on the fort.

When a card refers to itself by name, it's only referring to that particular copy.


I was about to say this. So Sensei>Sensei>Neural Katana>Cell Portal would give the second Sensei an ETR, and if for some reason just broke the ETR, the Neural Katana and Cell Portal would have 2 ETR.

Str 5 ETR code gate. Not bad.
 
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notyetsuperman wrote:
Neural Katana gains three ETRs the second time it's passed.

It has one from the first Sensei. It gains a second from the first Sensei and it gains a third from the second Sensei.

This occurs becuase the text reads; "... For the remainder of this run each piece of ice gains ... "


Note: Sensei never gains an ETR.

Also, note that anyone who wanted to by pass Cell Portal would have to pay to break it with the subs if Cell Portals first Sub Routine never fired.


I'm not parsing the arguments that on the second pass through the server that Neural Katana would have 3 ETRs.


Sequence of ICE encountered:

Sensei (first time): Add ETR to each other ICE

Neural Katana (first time): Do 3 Net Damage; ETR (1st Sensei)

Cell Portal (first time): "GOTO Start"; ETR (1st Sensei)

Sensei (second time): Add ETR to each other ICE encountered (#2)

Neural Katana (second time): Do 3 Net Damage; ETR (1st Sensei); ETR (2nd Sensei)

Cell Portal (second time): "GOTO Start"; ETR (1st Sensei); ETR (2nd Sensei)

etc.

Each 'pass' adds only one new ETR subroutine to every non-Sensei ICE.



-=-=-

Where is the 3rd ETR on the NK coming from on the Second Pass?
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William Frank
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byronczimmer wrote:
Where is the 3rd ETR on the NK coming from on the Second Pass?


The first pass of Sensei, which is still active. At least, that's the argument.
 
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scifantasy wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Where is the 3rd ETR on the NK coming from on the Second Pass?


The first pass of Sensei, which is still active. At least, that's the argument.


SENSEI:
[sub]: For the remainder of the run, each piece of ice encountered except Sensei gains "[sub]: End the run." after all its other subroutines.

ICE CARVER:
All ice is encountered with its strength lowered by 1.


While an ICE CARVER is in play, ICE is only at reduced strength while being encountered.

Likewise, I don't believe Sensei's bonus ETR subroutine exist except during the encounter.

So... on the second pass, there would be two lingering 'each piece of ice encountered gains ETR', and the second pass of NK would have two ETRs.


 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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byronczimmer wrote:
Where is the 3rd ETR on the NK coming from on the Second Pass?


Here's the argument:

Conceptually, let's reword Sensei's Subroutine to say "For the rest of the run, add a Sensei Counter to each other ICE encountered." Each Sensei Counter adds "ETR" after all other Subroutines on the ICE.

Sequence of ICE encountered:

Sensei (first time): "For the rest of the run, add a Sensei Counter to each ICE encountered."

Neural Katana (first time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (1 Sensei Counter total) Do 3 Net Damage; ETR;

Cell Portal (first time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (1 Sensei Counter total) "GOTO Start"; ETR;

Sensei (second time): "For the rest of the run, add a Sensei Counter to each ICE encountered." (#2)

Neural Katana (second time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- -2nd Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (3 Sensei Counters total) Do 3 Net Damage; ETR; ETR; ETR;

Cell Portal (second time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- -2nd Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (3 Sensei Counters total) "GOTO Start"; ETR; ETR; ETR;
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William Frank
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byronczimmer wrote:
Likewise, I don't believe Sensei's bonus ETR subroutine exist except during the encounter.

So... on the second pass, there would be two lingering 'each piece of ice encountered gains ETR', and the second pass of NK would have two ETRs.


Whereas others believe that the ETR subroutine applied to the NK lasts during the entire run (it does say "for the remainder of this run," though you would read that as "this is how long Sensei's effect lasts" of course), so on the second pass, the first Sensei hit adds an ETR, and the second Sensei hit adds an ETR, and the first time through Sensei had added an ETR, totaling three ETR.

I'm not saying I think it's right--I think each time Sensei triggers it adds one ETR to a given piece of ice and that's it--but that's the argument. Worth submitting for arbitration, if we can figure out how to explain it cleanly.
 
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Sensei says that each piece of ICE encountered gains an ETR subroutine. It doesn't say that for each encounter with a piece of ICE, add an ETR subroutine to the ICE being encountered. I can see the argument on the other side, but to me it looks like each piece of ICE only gets one per trigger of Sensei's subroutine, as it's still the same piece of ICE but just a different encounter with it.
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etherial wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Where is the 3rd ETR on the NK coming from on the Second Pass?


Here's the argument:

Conceptually, let's reword Sensei's Subroutine to say "For the rest of the run, add a Sensei Counter to each other ICE encountered." Each Sensei Counter adds "ETR" after all other Subroutines on the ICE.

Sequence of ICE encountered:

Sensei (first time): "For the rest of the run, add a Sensei Counter to each ICE encountered."

Neural Katana (first time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (1 Sensei Counter total) Do 3 Net Damage; ETR;

Cell Portal (first time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (1 Sensei Counter total) "GOTO Start"; ETR;

Sensei (second time): "For the rest of the run, add a Sensei Counter to each ICE encountered." (#2)

Neural Katana (second time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- -2nd Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (3 Sensei Counters total) Do 3 Net Damage; ETR; ETR; ETR;

Cell Portal (second time): -1st Sensei adds Sensei Counter- -2nd Sensei adds Sensei Counter- (3 Sensei Counters total) "GOTO Start"; ETR; ETR; ETR;


But the card says:

[sub]: For the remainder of the run, each piece of ice encountered except Sensei gains "[sub]: End the run." after all its other subroutines.

The 'for the remainder of the run' is the clause telling you how long the action clause 'each piece of ice encountered except Sensei gains {stuff}'.


-=-=-

Going with the KISS mentality, I think 1,2,3,4 subs total is more likely than 1,3,6,10 subs total (across 1,2,3,4 passes).
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William Frank
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byronczimmer wrote:
Going with the KISS mentality, I think 1,2,3,4 subs total is more likely than 1,3,6,10 subs total (across 1,2,3,4 passes).


Agreed, but you have to admit, the other way is not unsupported by the rules/text.
 
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scifantasy wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Going with the KISS mentality, I think 1,2,3,4 subs total is more likely than 1,3,6,10 subs total (across 1,2,3,4 passes).


Agreed, but you have to admit, the other way is not unsupported by the rules/text.


I would beg to differ. You get to add an ETR subroutine to each piece of ICE encountered. You're encountering the same piece of ICE a second time. Reading the card exactly as it is worded, that sounds to me like you don't get to add a second end the run from the first trigger of Sensei.
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Jeremy Larner
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Ok, so I just got a response from Lukas in regards to this. My question was:

Quote:
Rule Question:
I'm unclear about exactly how Sensei's subroutine works. Does it add additional subroutines to ice as soon as it triggers, or create a constant effect which adds subroutines when a piece of ice is encountered (like Chum)? Do those additional routines last until the end of encounter, or until the end of the run?

Imagine a run is taking place on a server with the following ice (inmost to outmost): Cell Portal, Neural Katana, Sensei. The runner only has Mimic installed. They encounter Sensei, and can't break it, so it's subroutine fires. They encounter Neural Katana, which now has 2 subroutines, so they pay 2 to break them with Mimic. They encounter Cell Portal, can't break it, so the subroutine fires, and they encounter Sensei again. They can't break Sensei either, so it's subroutine goes off again. When they encounter Neural Katana, how many subroutines does it now have?


His answer was:

Quote:
Thanks for the question. Sensei is creating an effect that lasts until the end of the run, so on the second pass the Neural Katana would have 3 'End the run' subroutines, since the first instance of that effect has now triggered twice.


I'm not entirely sure how to interpret that, and I'm thinking about asking for clarification, but I thought I'd see if it's just me being dense before bothering Lukas again.

It sounds like this means that either Sensei's additional routine only lasts until the end of the encounter, or that the same piece of ice can't create multiple copies of the same ability.

Any thoughts?
 
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