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Subject: FFG's FAQing logic? rss

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Matt Duckworth
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I was just thinking this past week about some of FFG's recent FAQs. Now I was not currently playing this game when the last FAQ came out so I'm probably a bit behind in the discussion, but I have to sometimes wonder what they are thinking?

1.) Why Master of Lore? I've been intrigued by the idea of solo mono-sphere decks for a long time now, and finally I see a card that makes Lore mono-sphere an interesting and viable alternative and it gets nerfed before I even get a chance to use it?

2.) I can understand Ziggy and Beravor, whom you could probably build ridiculous decks around... and even Nori, as he can get a bit abusive combined with cards like Spirit Bofur. However, there is a giant elephant in the room that has managed to dodge getting FAQ'ed every time, despite the ability to build equally ridiculous decks around this card. I don't even think I need mention this particular leadership hero... as anyone who plays this game, listens to the COTR podcasts, reads any forums, knows exactly who I am talking about. This card is just as abusive as Ziggy, Beravor, or Nori... how does he always managed to escape?
 
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Matthew Saloff
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1. There was a combo where you could win the game in one turn (on almost any scenario) with the Master of Lore.

2. Not sure how he's managed to not be touched but I think it more has to do with the fact that while he helps makes decks super solid, he isn't creating broken combos or infinite loops. The stuff with Master of Lore, Zigil Miner, Nori, and even Beravor to a point, did.
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Rauli Kettunen
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mjd83 wrote:
I don't even think I need mention this particular leadership hero...


Dam(n), calling for errata on Coragorn ?

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jakub praibis
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The Master of Lore combo was not nearly as powerful as some people probably think. It was actually quite hard getting up with so many cards needed for it, a hard quest would easily kill you by then, or set you into a position where even all the cards in your hand would make little difference. Plus, at least the deck I saw running the combo, the cards remaining (with so many slot taken by the combo cards - none of which really doing much once in play) weren't that strong, perhaps beside the Protector of Lorien, but even that is not going to win you many games even over a number of rounds, let alone one.

So yes, I too see little reason to nerf Master of Lore, especially to the digree they did.
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Matt Duckworth
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Dam the Man wrote:
mjd83 wrote:
I don't even think I need mention this particular leadership hero...


Dam(n), calling for errata on Coragorn ?



Lol...nope. The one "Core"agorn bows down too. The same one who's decks (built off him) seem to be the current standard for determining difficulty of current scenarios.... that is if you don't run this particular hero's deck, don't bother play HoN.
 
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Matt Duckworth
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jpraibis wrote:
The Master of Lore combo was not nearly as powerful as some people probably think. It was actually quite hard getting up with so many cards needed for it, a hard quest would easily kill you by then, or set you into a position where even all the cards in your hand would make little difference. Plus, at least the deck I saw running the combo, the cards remaining (with so many slot taken by the combo cards - none of which really doing much once in play) weren't that strong, perhaps beside the Protector of Lorien, but even that is not going to win you many games even over a number of rounds, let alone one.

So yes, I too see little reason to nerf Master of Lore, especially to the digree they did.



I'm tempted just to ignore the FAQ on this and try playing with it to see how "out of control" it gets. Might even build a deck around it just to see. I'll be surprised if it holds a candle to the Dain-multisphere-dwarf-uber deck. Honestly, it's really only a bit of resource acceleration for lore when you get right down to it... and slightly situational at that.
 
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Brendon Russell
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I remaine utterly baffled why Master of Lore got the errata rather than Horn of Gondor or Legacy of Durin. Putting an X times per-turn limit on either of those cards would've restricted the combo without (a) nerfing the more straightforward use of the card and (b) nerfing the same mono-sphere deckbuilding they are trying to sell us on in the upcoming cycle.
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Matt Duckworth
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scwont wrote:
I remaine utterly baffled why Master of Lore got the errata rather than Horn of Gondor or Legacy of Durin. Putting an X times per-turn limit on either of those cards would've restricted the combo without (a) nerfing the more straightforward use of the card and (b) nerfing the same mono-sphere deckbuilding they are trying to sell us on in the upcoming cycle.


Oh yeah, I forgot about those. And honestly, I've always thought that Steward of Gondor was nerf worthy. If you don't believe me, imagine playing a leadership deck without it. Not only have I always hated the thematic problems with this card, but It plays virtually as 0 cost (since it's ability instantly negates it's cost), and just completely removes resource management something to worry about. Slap it on a Lore Hero and suddenly you've got Dwarven mapmakers questing for ridiculous a few turns in.

I don't have near the problem with Horn of Gondor, but than again I've only got 1 copy so it never makes that big of an impact in most decks I have it. Legacy of Durin can result in ridiculous card draw, but not as ridiculous as pre FAQ 1.3 Beravor.

Honestly, my nerf list for the next FAQ would be

1.) Dain Ironfoot
2.) Steward of Gondor

Of course SOG will never get nerfed because it's been around since the core set, but one can dream.
 
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Matthew Saloff
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scwont wrote:
I remaine utterly baffled why Master of Lore got the errata rather than Horn of Gondor or Legacy of Durin. Putting an X times per-turn limit on either of those cards would've restricted the combo without (a) nerfing the more straightforward use of the card and (b) nerfing the same mono-sphere deckbuilding they are trying to sell us on in the upcoming cycle.


That was my exact thought when I first saw those erratas as well. Master of Lore wasn't the problem. Being able to draw infinite cards was the problem. Limit Legacy of Durin to once per turn and it kills the whole thing without making Master of Lore absolutely worthless.
 
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Michal Vit
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mjd83 wrote:

Honestly, my nerf list for the next FAQ would be

1.) Dain Ironfoot
2.) Steward of Gondor


Personally, I think that's another wonderful thing about LotR LCG - you don't like some cards, you don't play them.
Problem solved...?

I see there might be some issues in tournament settings when you would be "forced" to play certain cards in order to stand any chance to succeed. But I do not think the strength of the game is in tournament setting anyway.

There will be issues that FFG needs to handle via errata, I hope there will be as few as possible. If some of the current ones were non existent I wouldn't mind, it would make things simply easier in the sense you wouldn't need to worry that much about some FAQ.
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Matthew Saloff
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jpraibis wrote:
The Master of Lore combo was not nearly as powerful as some people probably think. It was actually quite hard getting up with so many cards needed for it, a hard quest would easily kill you by then, or set you into a position where even all the cards in your hand would make little difference. Plus, at least the deck I saw running the combo, the cards remaining (with so many slot taken by the combo cards - none of which really doing much once in play) weren't that strong, perhaps beside the Protector of Lorien, but even that is not going to win you many games even over a number of rounds, let alone one.

So yes, I too see little reason to nerf Master of Lore, especially to the digree they did.


Totally disagree. I never tried it in solo play but my friends and I built and played that combo in both 2 and 3 player a BUNCH and not once did I fail to eventually get the combo to work or lose a single game.

And you didn't NEED many cards remaining in the deck beyond the combo. For example, 1x Blade Mastery once you hit the combo can give you infinite attack or defense on 1 guy. Same with infinite wisdom on a Mapmaker Dwarf. Or infinite untaps on Legolas with 2x Blade of Gondolin to clear every enemy out along with the active location and all remaining quest cards. You will have all of this stuff in your hand so you don't need more than 1x of any of them nor space for many other tricks. Those are literally like the only 2 or 3 cards you need beyond the combo stuff.

Your teammates' decks did the stalling and playing normal cards.

Something *did* need done, but Master of Lore was the wrong call. Now Legacy of Durin and Horn of Gondor await the next semi-mistake card they make so we can do the same thing all over again.
 
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Matt Duckworth
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Personally, I think that's another wonderful thing about LotR LCG - you don't like some cards, you don't play them.
Problem solved...?


Not really, because they are designing scenarios now at a difficulty that assumes you own 3 core sets, the entire expansion collection, and are running a finely tuned Dain Dwarf deck with Steward of Gondor, Test of Wills, and all other essentials in place.

In fact, I would have sold this game by now if it weren't for bells and whistles from the saga expansions. I was fastly losing interest due to level of difficulty greatly restricting deck creativity... and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone since I've been playing this game nearly from it's release.
 
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Derek Coon
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You are not alone. I'm still unsure if I will buy the next expansion. I know it's impossible to please everybody, but the poor execution and lack of play testing on this game drives me nuts.
 
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John Steinbach
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I agree that the Master of Lore errata didn't need to happen. Limiting Legacy of Durin to once or even three times per round would have been sufficient. LoD would have remained an extremely powerful card, and Master of Lore might still represent the cornerstone of an interesting mono-Lore deck.

I disagree, however, that Dain/Steward need to be altered. As a general rule, I oppose errata unless they are absolutely necessary to break up a degenerate combo that trivializes the game. Neither Dain nor SoG (nor many of the other staples mentioned in this thread) fit that bill. They are just very good individual cards.

I also disagree with the notion that scenario difficulty forces players to use Dwarf decks. A Dain-centered deck is not the only viable build for HoN quests. You also definitely don't need three Core Sets, and you don't need to use Steward of Gondor. As Gollum would say, "[t]here is another way."
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Dain == powerful - I'd say the most powerful hero, then again someone has to be. It also encourages thematic decks. Which is great. Unlike Glorfindel and Elrond who just act as individual powerhouses. Rather than nerfing Dain, I'd rather them bring the other races up to that level and create some other deep synergies theme decks (fingers crossed on Gondor). Using Dain is NOT anywhere close to an auto-win even with heavily tuned decks.

And I do worry about the playtesting a bit. Especially when certain lead developers claim to test with decks that they post on the FFG website which are beyond doomed when playing most of the recent quests.

Also, kudos for the thread title.
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Matt Duckworth
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Quote:
I also disagree with the notion that scenario difficulty forces players to use Dwarf decks. A Dain-centered deck is not the only viable build for HoN quests. You also definitely don't need three Core Sets, and you don't need to use Steward of Gondor. As Gollum would say, "[t]here is another way."



John,

Would you be willing to back that assertion up? Could you furnish a non-dwarf solo deck that can get >30% against HoN quests? And if you furnish said deck, would you be willing to a.) either provide a session report or b.) give us strategy tips on said deck so we can try it out ourselves (less tedious)?

I am laying the gauntlet down for anyone who is willing to try. Might even make this a new post if I don't get any takers on this thread.
 
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Matt Duckworth
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Quote:
Also, kudos for the thread title.


Thank you! I was proud of myself for that (pats back), and was hoping someone would pick up on that sublety

I'd be amenable to bringing the other races up to speed to equal Dain+Dwarves. As hard as recent scenarios are, and considering most players probably don't have entire card pool, I wouldn't even be worried about power creep.... would only really Affect 2/3 of core quests and Mirkwood Cycle, in which case you could simply use card pool available at time (like in the progression videos).
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Matt Duckworth
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Bullroarer Took wrote:
You are not alone. I'm still unsure if I will buy the next expansion. I know it's impossible to please everybody, but the poor execution and lack of play testing on this game drives me nuts.


Since I recently "got back into this game" after leaving in frustration, might I give you some advice?

Before you give up, try both saga expansions. I have had a BLAST with them.... much, much, much more fun than HoN scenarios. I just had the most epic game of LOTR in my 1+ year history playing LOTR in the "Dungeons Deep and Caverns Grim" scenario.

I had successfully navigated the goblin tunnels (that keep coming up to my annoyance) and Bilbo had just riddled himself out of Gollum's cave just to re-unite and face a horde of 2 wargs and 4 goblins assaulting me on quest stage III.

I lost half my defenders, was "threated up" to 45, and new I had to complete in 1 more round with lucky card draw... which was distantly possible since I had plenty of dwarves and was holding "Untroubled by Darkness".

So next turn, what do I draw? *drum roll*.... GANDALF!!!!. Gandalf enters play blasting away one of the wargs with fire. I make a desperate questing attempt with Gandalf leading the way committing everything I've got, draw encounter card... Goblin caves (again!).. 3 threat staging area, havn't counted but cutting super close. I play "Untroubled by Darkness", plus up dwarven willpower, tally up quest with heart beating... 19 quest - 3 goblin tunnels matches the EXACT amount I need to get 16 progress and beat stage III leaving a hunting party of goblins and wargs behind!

I am so excited about that play that am thinking about reposting this in the general forums. In fact I think I will...

As a side note.. Dain was NOT one of my heroes... if he was it would have been much less epic.
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Brendon Russell
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mjd83 wrote:
Quote:
I also disagree with the notion that scenario difficulty forces players to use Dwarf decks. A Dain-centered deck is not the only viable build for HoN quests. You also definitely don't need three Core Sets, and you don't need to use Steward of Gondor. As Gollum would say, "[t]here is another way."
Would you be willing to back that assertion up? Could you furnish a non-dwarf solo deck that can get >30% against HoN quests? And if you furnish said deck, would you be willing to a.) either provide a session report or b.) give us strategy tips on said deck so we can try it out ourselves (less tedious)?

I am laying the gauntlet down for anyone who is willing to try. Might even make this a new post if I don't get any takers on this thread.
I think this is definitely a worthy topic, but needs a separate thread.

I've only had a couple of (miserably failed) attempts with Into Ithilien or Siege of Cair Andros, but I do have a deck which has had good results against Peril in Pelargir, and doesn't involve dwarves, Elrond or Glorfindel.
 
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Derek Coon
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mjd83 wrote:
Bullroarer Took wrote:
You are not alone. I'm still unsure if I will buy the next expansion. I know it's impossible to please everybody, but the poor execution and lack of play testing on this game drives me nuts.


Since I recently "got back into this game" after leaving in frustration, might I give you some advice?

Before you give up, try both saga expansions. I have had a BLAST with them.... much, much, much more fun than HoN scenarios. I just had the most epic game of LOTR in my 1+ year history playing LOTR in the "Dungeons Deep and Caverns Grim" scenario.

I had successfully navigated the goblin tunnels (that keep coming up to my annoyance) and Bilbo had just riddled himself out of Gollum's cave just to re-unite and face a horde of 2 wargs and 4 goblins assaulting me on quest stage III.

I lost half my defenders, was "threated up" to 45, and new I had to complete in 1 more round with lucky card draw... which was distantly possible since I had plenty of dwarves and was holding "Untroubled by Darkness".

So next turn, what do I draw? *drum roll*.... GANDALF!!!!. Gandalf enters play blasting away one of the wargs with fire. I make a desperate questing attempt with Gandalf leading the way committing everything I've got, draw encounter card... Goblin caves (again!).. 3 threat staging area, havn't counted but cutting super close. I play "Untroubled by Darkness", plus up dwarven willpower, tally up quest with heart beating... 19 quest - 3 goblin tunnels matches the EXACT amount I need to get 16 progress and beat stage III leaving a hunting party of goblins and wargs behind!

I am so excited about that play that am thinking about reposting this in the general forums. In fact I think I will...

As a side note.. Dain was NOT one of my heroes... if he was it would have been much less epic.

I've got them all and I'm glad you're having fun with them. On the Doorstep is 2/3rds of a good box.
 
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Matt Duckworth
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I've got them all and I'm glad you're having fun with them. On the Doorstep is 2/3rds of a good box.


What part of OTD is bad? Havn't played it much, only briefly tried Flies and Spiders solo... and wasn't even sure if I was playing right. That stage 3 seemed pretty daunting with a lone Bilbo. Didn't play full game.
 
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Derek Coon
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mjd83 wrote:
Quote:
I've got them all and I'm glad you're having fun with them. On the Doorstep is 2/3rds of a good box.


What part of OTD is bad? Havn't played it much, only briefly tried Flies and Spiders solo... and wasn't even sure if I was playing right. That stage 3 seemed pretty daunting with a lone Bilbo. Didn't play full game.

I didn't like the second quest at all. (Can't recall the name.) Flies and Spiders was a lot of fun though. Five Armies felt like Heirs to me.
 
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