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Subject: Viral Criminal Deck (Attacks Ice) I Don't Have A Clever Name For It rss

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Rob Dixon
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Working on a deck that focuses mainly on trashing and derezzing Ice to force the Corporation to keep paying to re-rez it, usually for expensive Ice (like Hadrian's, Archer, Janus). I think I'm on to something here, but it definitely needs some work. After a few games, this is what I have (I'm going to organize things a little oddly, but include explanations):

Identity - Gabriel Santiago

The Economy:
Rabbit Hole x2 (2F)
Underworld Contact x3
Desperado x2
Sure Gamble x3

Deciding on 2 Rabbit Hole to utilize Underworld Contact was kind of an "Aha!" moment for me. Honestly I don't know if anyone else is doing this but now I'm wondering why it didn't come to me sooner. There isn't a single card with 2 Link on it, making Underworld Contact less attractive outside of Kate decks since you'd have to draw two Link cards and pay for them. Desperado is the original and still best Console for my money, and works surprisingly well with Datasucker, which I discovered this weekend at the Regional. The only thing I'm not sure on is Sure Gamble. It just seems boring to me, and obviously it requires me to have 5 Credits to use (which I don't always). I'm wondering if there might be something more interesting to play.

The Run:
Special Order x3
Peacock x1
Aurora x1
Ninja x1
Crypsis x1
E3 Feedback Implants x1
Datasucker x3 (3 FP)
Nerve Agent x2 (4 FP)

The heavy reliance on viruses to make this deck work keeps me from reaching outside of the Criminal's arsenal, but what I'm hoping to achieve here is not a heavy reliance on Breakers to make runs, seeing as the goal here is to get as much Ice out of the way as possible. E3 Feedback is (obviously) there as a Silver Bullet against HB. Datasucker helps keep it on the cheap side, works well with Desperado, and helps speed the process along for Parasite.

Getting Ice Out of the Way:
Crescentus x2
Forged Activation Orders x3
Emergency Shutdown x3
Parasite x3 (6 FP)
Inside Job x3
Sneakdoor Beta x2
Snitch x1
Satellite Uplink x3

This is more or less straightforward. Snitch and Satellite Uplink reveal Ice to us, so we know what to let the Corporation spend their credits on, or what we'll need to make successful runs (so we can then de-rez or destroy his Ice outright later). Sneakdoor Beta is for when the Runner has gotten so fed up with you hitting their HQ from the front that you start assaulting the back door and it starts all over again.

Defence:
Decoy x2

'Nuff said.

What I'm looking for here is ways to tighten up my economy a bit, maybe discover if this trail has been thoroughly blazed, find weaknesses and generally just polish what has been kind of an idea I've been milling over for some time. I've so far had relatively decent success with it and find that my biggest weakness is actually small, cheap ice, rather than big expensive ice, since it's not attractive to de-rez it or otherwise destroy it, although I'm hoping now that I've got my Economy fixed a little bit that that will mitigate it somewhat.
 
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Brodie
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Crescentus, Sneakdoor, Datasucker, Parasite, Nerve Agent - you're over 5 MU before you even get a breaker installed. What's your deck's plan for the high memory cost of having all those cards? Juggle free memory by ruthlessly overwriting programs? Seems risky to me with only one copy of each breaker.

If you're looking for economic alternatives to Sure Gamble, it seems like you're primed to run Account Siphon, since you're going to be clearing a path to HQ anyway.
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Steven Tu
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What, Gabe deck without Siphon??? That card is Scorched Earth for the runner side, you just gotta include it in 3s. I haven't seen a good reason not to yet!
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Fluff Da Sheep
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Please stop trying to make Underworld Contacts work. It's a terrible, horrible, no-good card outside of Shaper decks, and even there I find it questionable at best. It's particularly horrible in criminal, where it costs you precious momentum to play it and activate it with sufficient link.

Just play Armitage and/or Easy Mark instead. And, like the previous two posters have said, Account Siphon.
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Falln The Kobold
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If you're playing a virus toolbox, I would suggest adding Djinn and one copy of different kinds of virusses. Djinn can also fetch Crypsis when you need one. And Djinn adds some MU that you'll need.

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Falln The Kobold
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Rob Dixon wrote:
Identity - Gabriel Santiago

The Economy:
Rabbit Hole x2 (2F)
Underworld Contact x3
Desperado x2
Sure Gamble x3


These are 8 economy cards (with three dead cards unless if you happen to have 4 credits and one rabit hole in your hand. even then underworld contact costs 2 credits to play. So you'll be making money the 7th turn after playing your combo with 1 underworld contact in play. By then the corp has gone through at least 1/3th of its deck. You'll lose the advantage of playing fast. Like you mention Sure Gamble needs 5 credits to be played. Since you're playing some kind of poor Gabe version, it's a bad card for your deck. I would suggest 3 Bank Job, 2 Desperado and 3 account Syphon as economy. Replace the Rabbit holes with Dyson Mem Chips. This will free some MU and also some influence.


Rob Dixon wrote:
The Run:
Special Order x3
Peacock x1
Aurora x1
Ninja x1
Crypsis x1
E3 Feedback Implants x1
Datasucker x3 (3 FP)
Nerve Agent x2 (4 FP)


I would run triple Crypsis in combination of 1 of the three others. If you have influence left, look to replace aurora. One nerve Agent (influence 2), two djinn (influence 4), three datasucker (influence 3), two parasite (influence 4), one deja-vu (influence 2). Or simply drop the parasites since Criminal has other ways to get through Ice.


Rob Dixon wrote:
Getting Ice Out of the Way:
Crescentus x2
Forged Activation Orders x3
Emergency Shutdown x3
Parasite x3 (6 FP)
Inside Job x3
Sneakdoor Beta x2
Snitch x1
Satellite Uplink x3


I would replace 1 of the parasites with something else (see previous), I also don't like snitch and crescentus since they take up memory. especially in combination with your virusses. I would add a third Dyson Mem Chip and maybe run three infiltration instead of sattellite uplink.
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Alejandro G.
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I'll go with the standard:

Have you played this deck yet or is this "theory crafting"?
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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I'm testing several builds for this kind of deck, some with Noise and others with Gabe.

Gabe allows me to use all the Criminals tools of the trade. Noise gives me Viruses, Deja Vu's and the exploitable Archive-Run.

It's very difficult to exploit this ICE Denial idea with Noise due to Influence restriction. You can give him some of the tools but you'll be lacking a great card for this kind of play: Inside Job.

As for Gabe, I never liked Gabe. So I'm struggling to build a deck around him since I don't like him and would rather opt for another Runner identity instead of the "everyone-plays-Gabe-because-he's-broken". But since Gabe is the only Criminal Runner I have to stuck with him.

One thing is certain, I don't need Shapers in this deck strategy.

From Anarchs I would think of:
>Datasucker - first pick! With Desperado running over empty Archieves will give 1Cred + 1Counter per Click, with Doppelganger will give 2Counters per Click
>Parasite - to work with Datasucker and destroy ICE
>Deja Vu - great tool to recover Inside Jobs, FAOs and Parasites
>Djinn - it costs 2 INF but it's a pretty good MU unit to store Snitches and stuff
-Wyrm - only because it breaks any piece of ICE, really good to go with Datasucker and E3 Implants
>Nerve Agent - good in a Criminal enviro but 2 INF, only 1 copy to fetch with Djinn or something

From Criminals (so many toys!):
>Emergency Shutdown - 'nuff said! Play an Inside Job 1st click, 2nd Click derezz ICE!
>Snitch - this card is simply OP
>Cortez Chip - paired with Snitch or FAO becomes a beast
>FAO - paired with Snitch and Cortez Chip becomes ICE removal plain and simple
>Crescentus - good card to pair with Wyrm or Crypsis, not as strong as eShutdown
>Comp. Employee - protection against Traces and economy card
>Sneakdoor Beta - to force the Corp to expand its ICE
>Inside Job - great card, works in several ocasions and it's an ideal card to play for your eShutdown or Bank Jobs
>Desperado - provides MU and economy - feeds Datasucker
>Doppelganger - provides MU and multi-Runs - feeds Datasucker
>E3 Implants - great against Bioroids and good with Wyrm
>Bank Job - in an ICE Denial enviro it's the best economy you can have

These are the cards I have in mind for this kind of strategy.
Of course there's also Account Syphon but it needs Decoy to work. The Syphon is a good card to have before FAO but without Decoy it will burn this strategy and that's why I didn't consider it.

Also, Crypsis would be the only 'Breaker unless you go with Wyrm-parasite-sucker. Crescentus plays well with Wyrm also and not so good with single-Crypsis.

Another choice is, you go with Parasite-sucker or Deja Vu's for recurring Crim stuff. You go with Djinn or not? Sneakdoor Beta + Nerve Agent?!

And finally, Desperado or Doppelganger?

Yup... I'm still working on my deck with ALL these things in mind!
 
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mathew rynich
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fluffdasheep wrote:
Please stop trying to make Underworld Contacts work. It's a terrible, horrible, no-good card outside of Shaper decks, and even there I find it questionable at best. It's particularly horrible in criminal, where it costs you precious momentum to play it and activate it with sufficient link.

Just play Armitage and/or Easy Mark instead. And, like the previous two posters have said, Account Siphon.


Disagree strongly. I run Rabbit hole in Gabe anyway to run through tracers when the corp's credits are low (also slim down the deck). UC is a natural synergy. Play Armitage and Account Siphon. Both awesome cards. Easy mark is a last resort economy card. It has such a small economic benefit.
 
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Rob Dixon
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Quote:
What's your deck's plan for the high memory cost of having all those cards?


Quote:
I would suggest adding Djinn and one copy of different kinds of virusses. Djinn can also fetch Crypsis when you need one. And Djinn adds some MU that you'll need.


In two games, I haven't reached memory cap yet, I think the highest I got to was Crypsis / Datasucker / Sneakdoor / Parasite and the Parasite left after I trashed a Hadrian's with it. That is a good point though, and Djinn is a really elegant solution to this.

Quote:
it seems like you're primed to run Account Siphon

Quote:
What, Gabe deck without Siphon???

Quote:
And, like the previous two posters have said, Account Siphon.

Quote:
3 account Syphon


I don't know what everybody's affection for Account Syphon is. You have to make a successful run (typically expensive) and -hope- the Corp has any money left when you get there, which he can dump into rezzing Ice and running traces, and then invest the next two turns spending money to drop tags. It's risky -and- time consuming. It's never been worth it for me. Maybe if I supported it with Crash Space...? I'll consider it.

Quote:
Have you played this deck yet or is this "theory crafting"?


Three times so far. Won twice against Weyland.



 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Rob Dixon wrote:
Deciding on 2 Rabbit Hole to utilize Underworld Contact was kind of an "Aha!" moment for me. Honestly I don't know if anyone else is doing this but now I'm wondering why it didn't come to me sooner. There isn't a single card with 2 Link on it


Except for The Toolbox.

Quote:
making Underworld Contact less attractive outside of Kate decks since you'd have to draw two Link cards and pay for them. Desperado is the original and still best Console for my money, and works surprisingly well with Datasucker


Doppelganger works even better with Datasucker...

If you're running with as many programs as you have, I think you'd be better off with Dyson Mem Chips, which give you Link and MU and don't cost Influence.
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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Rob Dixon wrote:
Quote:
it seems like you're primed to run Account Siphon

Quote:
What, Gabe deck without Siphon???

Quote:
And, like the previous two posters have said, Account Siphon.

Quote:
3 account Syphon


I don't know what everybody's affection for Account Syphon is. You have to make a successful run (typically expensive) and -hope- the Corp has any money left when you get there, which he can dump into rezzing Ice and running traces, and then invest the next two turns spending money to drop tags. It's risky -and- time consuming. It's never been worth it for me. Maybe if I supported it with Crash Space...? I'll consider it.


I don't 'Syphon either...
As I wrote before, Syphon needs protection from Decoys.
Crash Space would help with Creds but what you'd need is Clicks. Or you play Syphon on Click #1 #2 or you'll need to have a Decoy set. And having a card in your deck to prevent a drawback from other card... meh.

I like to have a Trace or two in my Corp decks to stuck them in my HQ. This way I can spend all the Creds I have in a Trace, if it triggers. Or I'll just rez a paid Asset or Upgrade. With NBN I would only rez Sansan when an opponent played his/her Syphon.

I really don't think Syphon makes its game right now.
It was a strong card when we only had the Core Set. Right now... don't think so. Also FAO is a way better card to drought the Corp.
 
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David Jackman
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oDESGOSTO wrote:


I really don't think Syphon makes its game right now.
It was a strong card when we only had the Core Set. Right now... don't think so. Also FAO is a way better card to drought the Corp.



Why is siphon so bad now? Just curious. It doesn't seem like anything has reduced its value.
 
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Steven Tu
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Forged activation order is more often than not a glorified safe run/expose. At best the corp didn't spend credits, and can draw/replace the ice lost.

Account siphon must be used carefully, but at the right moment (as it should always be played), even if you "defend" agsinst it by blowing all your money, you've blown all your money. Only very specific corp/cards can defend against it without being completely hamstrung.

Even if you remove tags after manually without support, a hit is still a 9 cred swing, 12 if you count Gabe's ability and desperado. Even if you use all 12 creds on getting in, you've still dropped the corp by 5 creds.

It's still the scariest card in gabe arsenal, barring fringe cases.
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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Ok, Siphon does all that and more but...
It gives you two Tags (if you use its effect).
A good Corp player will negate its effect.

When I Corp against Crims the first ICE I'll drop in HQ is Ichi or Vyper. Also I'll leave my Adonis Campaign de-rezzed to wait for a Siphon drop and then spend 4 Creds in it. I'll play lowball against Crims so I'll have a stash of 6~8 Creds max.
With my NBN I'll drop any of my Trace arsenal in HQ plus if I want to meta against Crims I'll put 3x TMI (use 2 in main deck) and 3x Draco on my deck. Both these ICE can spend all the Corp Creds in a Run and leave Siphon without targets.

But let's say someone gives you money with Siphon.
Are you Running on Click #1? No, maybe Click #2 since you'd draw a card or take some Creds. You'll have to spend +2 Clicks after that one to get rid of Tags if you want to preserve your Employees and stuff.
So, you'll spend a whole turn in a Siphon play to take ~6 Creds.

Then it's the Corp's turn.
If you kept one Tag the Corp can trash a Resource next turn.
If not, the Corp may forfeit 3 Clicks to make 3 Creds (or more, if there is a MMC or something else out there) and the card at the beggining of the turn step. So, turns spent, no card advantage, no Cred advantage (because you got rid of 2 Traces).

But, as I've said, right now there are many tools and many ways to avoid Siphon that it's not that card it used to be. It's just like Scorched Earth, a very powerfull card that was but it's not anymore.
 
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Brodie
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Rob Dixon wrote:
I don't know what everybody's affection for Account Syphon is. You have to make a successful run (typically expensive) and -hope- the Corp has any money left when you get there, which he can dump into rezzing Ice and running traces, and then invest the next two turns spending money to drop tags. It's risky -and- time consuming. It's never been worth it for me. Maybe if I supported it with Crash Space...? I'll consider it.


If the Corp dumps all their money when you get there, don't take the tags, just access cards. You still come away happy because they don't have any credits left to rez ice for the rest of the turn, so whatever's protected by unrezzed ice is vulnerable. Also, they can't dump money into rezzing other ice - ice can only be rezzed when approached. And you're already running Decoy (and could add Crash Space), so getting rid of tags shouldn't be too big of an issue - certainly worth bankrupting the Corp.

That bears repeating - the purpose of Account Siphon isn't to come away with 10 credits and 2 tags. If you do, great, but the purpose of Account Siphon is to bankrupt the Corp. When you've got money and they don't, it's a huge swing in your favor. The Corp can't rez ice (or troublesome assets like Ash), and traces lose a lot of teeth as well.
 
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mathew rynich
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Also anything they rez using that money is now out in the open. That's huge because the revealed assets and upgrades lose that surprise/mystery factor. Account Siphon is definitely worth it. If they rez big ICE during the run you can shut them down afterwards. Always worth doing.
 
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