Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: Account Siphon: Does the runner still have the option to access cards? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jack Kelly
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I googled with site:boardgamegeek.com and found people like Tuism saying that the runner may still choose to access cards. I'm not convinced, so can we go over it closely? Here's the text:

Quote:
Make a run on HQ. If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the corp to lose up to 5c, then you gain 2c for each credit lost and take 2 tags.


I parse it like this:

- You spend your click to play Account Siphon, starting a run on HQ with the condition "If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the corp to lose up to 5c, then you gain 2c for each credit lost and take 2 tags.".

- You make it to step 4.4 of the run ("The run is considered to be SUCCESSFUL. ('When successful conditionals meet their trigger conditions.')").

- The condition created by Account Siphon fires, replacing the first part of step 4.5 ("Access cards, then go to (5).") with a new step: "You may force the corp to lose up to 5c, then you gain 2c for each credit lost and take 2 tags.". Then we have two options:

A- The runner can choose to play this step, force the corp to lose credits, gain their credits and take their 2 tags.

B- The runner chooses not to play this step, the corp loses nothing, the runner gains nothing and no tags are taken.

- In either case, the second half of the new step 4.5 ("Access cards You may force the corp to lose up to 5c, then you gain 2c for each credit lost and take 2 tags, then go to (5).") resolves and the run moves to step 5 ("The run ends.").

The conventional belief that Account Siphon allows you to access cards would, IMHO, require wording like the following:

Quote:
Make a run on HQ. If successful, you may choose to force the corp to lose up to 5c instead of accessing cards. If you do so, gain 2c for each credit lost and take 2 tags.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brodie
United States
KC
Missouri
flag msg tools
mb
This was clarified in the official FAQ.

Quote:
Q: If the Runner plays Account Siphon, but chooses to access
cards from HQ instead of draining credits, does the Runner
gain 2 tags?

A: No. The “then” clause on Account Siphon only resolves if the
Runner forces the Corp to lose credits.


Since FFG's official answer wasn't "invalid question; if you use Account Siphon you do not have the option to access cards," we can infer that you can choose to access cards upon a successful run, and the replacement effect is optional.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Make a run on HQ. If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the Corp to lose up to 5 [Credits], then you gain 2 [Credits] for each credit lost and take 2 tags.


It says instead of A, you may B.

So... Do you not do A if you don't do B?

A = accessing cards.
B = force the Corp to lose up to 5 [Credits], then you gain 2 [Credits] for each credit lost and take 2 tags.

There are no breaks between the two conditions of B, so they're a single resolve.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Kelly
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tuism wrote:
Quote:
Make a run on HQ. If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the Corp to lose up to 5 [Credits], then you gain 2 [Credits] for each credit lost and take 2 tags.


It says instead of A, you may B.

So... Do you not do A if you don't do B?

A = accessing cards.
B = force the Corp to lose up to 5 [Credits], then you gain 2 [Credits] for each credit lost and take 2 tags.

There are no breaks between the two conditions of B, so they're a single resolve.


If I say to someone "you may have an apple", they have the choice between having an apple and nothing.

The fact that the two parts of B were a single resolve was never in question. I was asking where the decision point was inserted into the timing structure of a run. Specifically, are you being offered the choice between accessing cards and (draining money and getting tagged), or does the fact that "instead" comes before "may" replace the card access with the option to (drain money and get tagged)?

My interpretation of Account Siphon would make it impossible to access cards in a remote server while you have a Bank Job installed, so it's probably wrong.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
endgame wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Quote:
Make a run on HQ. If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the Corp to lose up to 5 [Credits], then you gain 2 [Credits] for each credit lost and take 2 tags.


It says instead of A, you may B.

So... Do you not do A if you don't do B?

A = accessing cards.
B = force the Corp to lose up to 5 [Credits], then you gain 2 [Credits] for each credit lost and take 2 tags.

There are no breaks between the two conditions of B, so they're a single resolve.


If I say to someone "you may have an apple", they have the choice between having an apple and nothing.

The fact that the two parts of B were a single resolve was never in question. I was asking where the decision point was inserted into the timing structure of a run. Specifically, are you being offered the choice between accessing cards and (draining money and getting tagged), or does the fact that "instead" comes before "may" replace the card access with the option to (drain money and get tagged)?

My interpretation of Account Siphon would make it impossible to access cards in a remote server while you have a Bank Job installed, so it's probably wrong.


But someone didn't say to me "you may have an apple", someone said to me

"Instead of oranges, you may have an apple"

You can't just leave out "instead of oranges" from the interpretation, because it's there.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Kelly
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tuism wrote:
endgame wrote:
If I say to someone "you may have an apple", they have the choice between having an apple and nothing.


But someone didn't say to me "you may have an apple", someone said to me

"Instead of oranges, you may have an apple"

You can't just leave out "instead of oranges" from the interpretation, because it's there.


What someone (FFG) actually said to you was: "In this playground (A:NR), we have a rule that says if you pass this obstacle course (run), you must take an orange (access cards)."

Then, later, that same someone gave you a coupon (Account Siphon) that said "Use this coupon and attempt the obstacle course. If you pass, instead of taking an orange you may have an apple (siphon, tags)."

The question: What becomes of the original rule under the temporary modification?

I was saying that it becomes "if you pass this obstacle course, you may have an apple".

It is clear, given the context of Bank Job and the ruling from the FAQ, that the intent is for it to become "if you pass this obstacle course, you must take an orange. Instead of taking an orange, you may have an apple."

Do you see how you get two very different meanings depending on how the word "instead" is applied?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Milan Mašát
Czech Republic
Praha
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have to agree with both.
1) OP is right, that the description is not clear, moreover I also understand it the way that you no longer can access, but you can choose to have the money or not.
(We plan to have spaghetti. Looking into store (no spaghetti there), I call to my wife: "Instead of spaghetti we can have potatoes". It does not matter if we take potatoes or not, we cannot have spaghetti.)

2) After the FAQ, it is clear that FFG has meant the card to work another way, so you can pull back and still take the access. The rules are the law, and this topic is over.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OK
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Kelly
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Vodnyk wrote:
this topic is over.


Agreed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant Cain
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I actually did this to someone last night. I used AS and he used all his money on the traces on HQ. I had a bunch of virus counters on my nerve agent and swiped an agenda from him AND he had used all his money.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.