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Subject: Rabbit Hole-Underground Contract outside of Shaper rss

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sechzger
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Hi,
i've read in another thread that RH+UC just don't work outside of Shaper or atleast doesn't belong there.
I admit 3 Influence and especially 6 cards is a lot.
But RH alone can make things so easy. Shadow, Data Raven and Viper have to be expected a lot. Rabbit Hole "breaks" all of those for free.
If you play the combo in Criminals you will have a pretty good lategame plan.
It definatly sucks if you just draw the UC and don't get the RH, but with three of each you should find the RH at some point.

I have some good experiences with this combo in my Gabe-deck.

What are your feelings.
 
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Steven Tu
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recallme wrote:
Hi,
i've read in another thread that RH+UC just don't work outside of Shaper or atleast doesn't belong there.
I admit 6 Influence and 6 cards is a lot.
But RH alone can make things so easy. Shadow, Data Raven and Viper have to be expected a lot. Rabbit Hole "breaks" all of those for free.
If you play the combo in Criminals you will have a pretty good lategame plan.
It definatly sucks if you just draw the UC and don't get the RH, but with three of each you should find the RH at some point.

I have some good experiences with this combo in my Gabe-deck.

What are your feelings.


3 Influence and 6 cards. Rabbit holes are 1 influence each. UC is generic

I don't think it doesn't belong in other factions, but then they'll have to be tuned towards the longer game - any investment in RH and UC is tuning towards a long game. I haven't really seen a focussed and good enough big rig Gabe, and Anarchs... Well, Whizzard may be able to big rig.

So, give it a shot
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Paul Maletic
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I use both in an anarch deck I have to good success. I don't always pay for all 3 rabbit holes depending on how my link need is for the game. But definitely helps take the bite out of what could be an easy trap in some ice.

It does stink though when your Underground Contacts don't come out till the very end of the deck...
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sechzger
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Thanks Tuism to pointing my mistake out. Already fixed it now.
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William Frank
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The thing about Rabbit Hole/Underworld Contacts for me outside of Shaper isn't just the influence cost, it's the setup cost, or perhaps the complexity cost. Especially, as in that deck crossthread, with only two Rabbit Holes.

With a Shaper deck, especially a Kate deck, all you need is one extra Link, which you can get from some consoles, from Helpful AIs, from Rabbit Holes--all Shaper cards that fit the scheme and form of Kate decks.

With a non-Kate deck, especially that crossthread deck, one needs to draw a Rabbit Hole (and with two in the deck, that isn't a guarantee early) or else three cards, the economic center of the deck, are dead weight.
 
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sechzger
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Yeah playing 2 is definatly a mistake. That's why i am taliking about 6 cards.
It#s either the package or no UC at all.
 
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Martin Presley
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Tuism wrote:

I don't think it doesn't belong in other factions, but then they'll have to be tuned towards the longer game - any investment in RH and UC is tuning towards a long game. I haven't really seen a focused and good enough big rig Gabe, and Anarchs... Well, Whizzard may be able to big rig.


Basically this. If you build aiming for the long game you're playing against Gabe's central strength, which is early game aggression. It would seem to work well in a Noise deck in theory, but I don't know if Noise has the card space to spare between all his amazing, synergistic cards. And Whizzard I'm convinced works best as a super-turn Vamp/Medium deck, which gives almost no shits about link. Even in CT, I think MO is strong enough on its own that additional trickle economy won't help you as much as extra tricks or tools would. Again, it's not as if it is BAD in these decks, just that the opportunity cost of not including other cards is too high.

It's amazing in Kate though. An economy solely built around Aesop's and trickle effects is totally viable and has some advantages over Test Run+MO.
 
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B C Z
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There is no 'R' in the second word of the card under discussion.
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Steven Tu
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byronczimmer wrote:
There is no 'R' in the second word of the card under discussion.


Rabbit... Hore? Underground... Contact?

Edit: OH YES, it IS contact
 
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Scott Hartman
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i've been playing these in my noise deck lately. But that Noise deck is not like most, its all about getting money. RH is great for the contacts, and frankly if you are going to play the Underworld Contacts with anyone who isn't Kate then RH is the best way to get them up and running.

edit: corrected the name
 
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William Frank
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byronczimmer wrote:
There is no 'R' in the second word of the card under discussion.


While we're at it, the contact isn't underground, it's underworld.
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Scott Hartman
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haha, i guess this card is easy to get the wrong name. not sure why but i think its funny several people call it wrong in several different ways.
 
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João Almeida
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I have been using Rabbit Hole in my Noise deck (it is a Wyldside + Pawnshop big rig) since What Lies Ahead was released, so Underworld Contact was an easy thing to include. I currently run 3 of each, but I want to use only 2 UC 'cause there isn't better cards to use yet.

Maybe Humanity's Shadow can fix that. =P
(Kati Jones is terrible with Wyldside, but maybe one of the anarch cards are viable for my archetype...)
 
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Steve
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It is interesting how almost no one calls it by its name. Translating from localized German may be the case for the OP, but I've heard about 8 different variants now.

And I've seen the RH/UC combo used with great success in all factions.
 
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William Frank
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stevepop wrote:
It is interesting how almost no one calls it by its name. Translating from localized German may be the case for the OP, but I've heard about 8 different variants now.


Yeah, don't you wish we could go back to the days of Experimental Experiential Data and Autoscript Astroscript Pilot Program?

(We should create a list of commonly misspelled/misnamed cards...)
 
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B C Z
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scifantasy wrote:
stevepop wrote:
It is interesting how almost no one calls it by its name. Translating from localized German may be the case for the OP, but I've heard about 8 different variants now.


Yeah, don't you wish we could go back to the days of Experimental Experiential Data and Autoscript Astroscript Pilot Program?

(We should create a list of commonly misspelled/misnamed cards...)


Isn't that why we're often drinking?
 
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William Frank
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byronczimmer wrote:
scifantasy wrote:
(We should create a list of commonly misspelled/misnamed cards...)


Isn't that why we're often drinking?


Well, new ones have been added. I'm creating the post on the General board now, and I included the line "if the fits, drink it."
 
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David Jackman
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Honestly, with the current card pool of link-producing cards, I dont think its a good idea to run underworld contact outside of Shaper at all, and I personally wouldn't run it in CT.

Kate runs it well, because there 9 cards you can run that have ancillary benefit beyond UC and link in general: Helpful AI, Rabbit Hole, and Dyson Mem Chip. This makes the startup cost a bit easier to swallow, and kate excels at installing lots of stuff.

Its a combo you have to draw early to be worthwhile, and requires two distinct cards, which will make it rather inconsistent in the early game without spending lots of clicks drawing. Late game UC is a dead draw, and if you are drawing at all late game, it is always something specific you are looking for.



 
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Adam Perry
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i kinda feel like the new crim card will probably have 1 link, making it a little more feasible to try and run UC
 
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William Frank
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experimilk wrote:
i kinda feel like the new crim card will probably have 1 link, making it a little more feasible to try and run UC


That makes a lot of sense, especially if it's Andromeda as we all suspect.

(Hell, maybe it'll have 2 link up front! That would be very in keeping with the theme, and consistent with how CT has a boost to memory. A 40-card minimum, 2 link Criminal?)
 
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Seth M
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scifantasy wrote:
experimilk wrote:
i kinda feel like the new crim card will probably have 1 link, making it a little more feasible to try and run UC


That makes a lot of sense, especially if it's Andromeda as we all suspect.

(Hell, maybe it'll have 2 link up front! That would be very in keeping with the theme, and consistent with how CT has a boost to memory. A 40-card minimum, 2 link Criminal?)


Would be ridiculously powerful enough to actually tempt a majority of people to stop playing Gabe, I suppose.
 
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William Frank
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talain wrote:
Would be ridiculously powerful enough to actually tempt a majority of people to stop playing Gabe, I suppose.


It would certainly be a different structure than a Gabe deck. Instead of the fast-and-furious early game, it would probably end up with Big Rig Criminal, using Contacts instead of Magnum Opus, a full breaker suite (no extra memory necessary because Contacts are resources, not programs), and the usual bag of Criminal tricks...throw in Doppleganger and you could even go for Notoriety.

Hell, I might give it a whirl.
 
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