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Subject: Calling in the Debt - a simple game of werewolf and obligation. Seeking 15 players. rss

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John Valvard
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Roles-

2 Werewolves (common wolfchat, night attack)
1 Sorcerer (views Seer/non-Seer)


1 Seer (views Wolf/non-Wolf)
1 Parity Hunter (wins for good if 1-1 with a Wolf at game end)
1 Banker (see below)
1 Clerk (see below)
X Villagers (no ability)


The Seer, Sorcerer and Parity Hunter roles are standard.
Specifics of the Wolf attack and the Banker/Clerk roles are novel.


Status and Debt
Each player has a Status level and Debt level.
Status starts between 2 and 5 for each player, with 5 being a maximum beyond which Status can never rise. If Status falls to 0, the player dies.
Debt starts at 0 for each player.
Status and Debt can change at Dusk and Dawn. Players will always be informed of their current Status and Debt levels.


Wolf attack
Each night when the Wolves kill, they can kill with a strength value up to 6, distributed among as many players as desired, though each additional player costs a surcharge of 1; so:
1 target at strength 6
2 targets at total strength 5
3 targets at total strength 4

Wolves are allowed to target themselves for tactical reasons, but at no discount.
Each Dawn, Wolves will receive a Debt summary of all players with Debt.

For each target:
If kill strength matches or exceeds the player's Status value, the player is killed outright.
If kill strength is less than the player's Status value, the player becomes indebted by the kill value, and also loses that much Status.

For example, a kill of strength 3 on a player with Status 5 would leave that player with Debt 3 and Status 2.


Debt and voting
At any time from Dawn to Dusk, the Wolves may give orders to the mod for the votes of all or any of their indebted players, with conditions based on the final Cassandra vote tally, such as
'if Javal is to be lynched by a margin less than 2, vote the second place player'
or
'if Javal is about to be lynched by a margin less than 3, vote jaredh'
or
'if jmilum would be lynched with the addition of 2 votes, vote jmilum'
or
'if you are voting on Javal at day end, vote jmilum instead'

or any equivalent, or can simply set a direct command, such as 'change your vote to Javal'

At Dusk, each indebted player who has been given an order - which is valid (the condition, if any, is met) and which the player is not already following - will:
1) if Status exceeds Debt, repay the Debt in full and ignore the order.
(eg: jmilum has a Debt of 2 and a Status of 3. He is ordered to vote Javal and is not already doing so. Rather than obey, he eliminates the Debt and is reduced to Status 1, Debt 0)
2) if Debt matches or exceeds Status, reduce the Debt by 2 (minimum 0) and obey the order.
(eg: jmilum has a Debt of 3 and a Status of 2. He is ordered to vote Javal and is not already doing so. His vote shifts to Javal, and he now has Debt level 1 and Status 2.

If the order is not valid (eg conditional on Javal being lynch lead, when he isn't) or the player is already following it (eg 'vote Javal' given to a player who ends with his vote on Javal), the order is disregarded, and no Debt/Status adjustment is made.

Moved votes KEEP THEIR FINAL VOTE ORDER NUMBER for the purposes of LHLV.

After resolving the effects of orders, the moderator will announce who was lynched, but not by what margin; indeed, no amended vote totals will be announced.

Note that since a player will always be advised of changes in Status and Debt, he/she will know if an order was given, but will not know the details of the order, or even where their vote ended up.

Also note that Wolves can self-attack in order to give themselves the ability to covertly change vote at day's end, but spending attack strength this way reduces their opportunity to kill and influence others.

All conditionals are resolved based on the published Cassandra tally, thus eliminating potential issues with logic loops.


Banker
Each night, the Banker may distribute Status credits to other players (not himself).
The number of credits distributed will equal the number of evil players still alive, and the Banker is allowed to give his own Status credits away as well, if he wishes; the Banker is told at Dusk how many credits are available.
Alternatively, the Banker may choose to gain all Status equal to the number of evil players still alive, and not distribute any, but can never hold more than 5 credits.
The Banker begins knowing the identity of the Clerk.


Clerk
Each night, the Clerk will learn the Status and Debt levels (before and after) of all the players to whom the Banker gives Status credits that night (including the Banker himself, if he chooses to give Status to himself instead of distributing it).
If the Banker is killed, the Clerk may on subsequent nights view any player and learn that player's Status and Debt levels.
The Clerk does not begin the game knowing the identity of the Banker, but may deduce it if the Banker pays all credit to himself.


Game routine

Order of night actions:
Views
Banker
Wolves

Reveal at death
Each dead player will reveal (accurately) as
Wolf
Sorcerer/Seer (ie players cannot distinguish*)
Other (ie Banker, Clerk, Hunter, Villager)

*except for the Banker when he/she is told at Dusk how many Status credits are available to distribute that night, and the Clerk when he/she learns how many Status credits were given out.

Status or Debt level of the deceased will not be revealed.

Roles in Cassie
Wolf, Sorcerer, Seer, Hunter, Villager as expected.
Banker will be assigned the roletype 'Bodyguard', since his ability mitigates a kill attempt.
Clerk will be assigned the roletype 'Aux Seer'.


********************

Overall effect:
Wolves can play this as a standard Werewolf game, always killing a single player with a strength 5 attack (well, 6, but 5 will always work anyway). In that case, the Banker and Clerk are merely uniquely claimable roles, one of which knows the other, and have no other merit, since debt will never arise.
Alternatively, Wolves can split the kill strength in the hope of increasing the casualty rate and/or gaining some vote control. Vote control is ephemeral, however, since with the help of the Banker, players can recoup their Status over time, and pay off their Debt when it is called in, rather than obey a vote order.
Alternatively again, Wolves can spread their kill widely and then give orders immediately in the full expectation of non-compliance, so that the attack strength ends up depleting targets by double the Status of the attack strength value (once when the Debt is generated and once again when it is paid off).
Wolves (and others) should note that the Sorcerer may try to signal his/her masters by denying the imposition of a Debt, but then again, this is also a false-hint available to others.
Villagers may be more or less inclined to go quietly to lynch depending on their Debt levels, and how much of a liability/easy kill they represent.
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Cassandra Project
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Player List According to Cassandra:
baub64
bluelise
Chinnie
Dake
dbmurph22
greek2me
kuchick
Luthien
RCSparrow
redshark92
sburker1
seanp
StatSig
Tyfo
wsethm_8

15 players are signed up.

To sign up for this game go to
http://www.thecassandraproject.org/jeremy/werewolf/game/9665...
 
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Blue (They/She)
Canada
Guelph
Ontario
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This looks totally fucked up. I'm in.
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John Valvard
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Yeah, I've run the numbers a few ways, but I have no idea how it will play out. I think the Wolves have a disadvantage if they ignore the split-kill, because of the mason-pair, but I don't know how much of a boost they could get by enslaving votes and/or wearing status down by making calls on debts without purpose.
My main concern is that if the Wolves footle around for a couple of days generating debt, there will be no kills to work from.
But then, the Seer can have generated a superb list of safety, the tempo favours the village and the Banker has distributed a load of assets.
Plus the people who have been targeted would potentially represent a good semi-safe pool as well, so the Wolves would have to waste opportunity by self-targeting as cover.
So... yeah... who knows.
 
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Joe Reil
United States
Barre
Vermont
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I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Dake Jimson
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Billerica
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fuck, when i'm not actively playing a game i find myself wanting to sign-up for ALL THE GAMES!

i'm signed up for too many, but i'm keeping my eye on this one. javal's games rock.
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Michael Mesich
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Minneapolis
Minnesota
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Horta chortles.
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I just paid a poor tax of 5.

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Michael Mesich
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Minneapolis
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Horta chortles.
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Hmmm .. apparently Cassie thinks that $1 is a string parameter.

That can't be good....
 
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Joana
Portugal
Lisboa
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I'm newbie here, and I don't know exactly which are the criterias for the classifications, but... imo I don't consider this a low complexity game
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Greg Wilson
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There's no accepted standard. When we were doing the Fresh Blood games, there was some argument about me marking a P11 as 'low' instead of 'noob'.
 
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Phelan
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A question that I don't think is clear from the rules: You have the option of obeying or disobeying an order?
If you do get that option, do you know what the order was, or only that there was one?
 
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John Valvard
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Phelanpt wrote:
A question that I don't think is clear from the rules: You have the option of obeying or disobeying an order?
If you do get that option, do you know what the order was, or only that there was one?
There is no choice in this. If the order is valid and is not one you are following already, then if your debt outweighs or matches your status, you WILL obey.
There is no time, game-wise, to allow choice on this, and it wouldn't be in line with the intended theme anyway.
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Chi Hayashi
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I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Seth Marsden
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I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Jeff Shald
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This looks awesomely complex. And, since I'm still learning the basics, I'm going to step away.

Y'all enjoy!
 
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Alan
United States
Shaker Heights
Ohio
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I just signed up on Cassandra. Thought I'd give it a go again. Haven't played WW in a while. (So, lynch everyone else first! Ha!)
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Dustin Bergman
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I just signed up on Cassandra.
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Crimson Fox
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Cincinnati
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calling in the thread! Join this fluffing game!
 
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Bob Menzel
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Montpelier
Vermont
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Missed it by that much ...
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I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Ron
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I think Javal's games are cool - but note that he himself has not signed into BGG for something like 10 weeks.

Please, continue to sign up - but sign up with optimistic patience, not a twitchy ADD'd "let's start this sucker up!" attitude.
 
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John Valvard
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Um... Hi all! Lots of activity on this - 22 mails waiting for me about sign-ups and unsigns.

Apologies for my prolonged absence - twins arrived in January and my free wolf time dropped to zero since the end of last year in consequence. There may be a chink of light just starting with fractionally more reliable sleep patterns, so there is a chance of returning. I'll geekmail current player roster to see who is still keen... With 16 months since the game was originally posted, I have no doubt some of you have forgotten/found better things to be doing!

Hope to get this or some other game going in the near future.

Yours,

Javal (reactivated!)
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Amanda Fabulous
United States
Hillsborough/Durham
North Carolina
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still keen.


Javan?
 
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John Valvard
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Typo errors forever, ku.
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United States
California
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But listen again. Is it really the wind, or is it the sound of somebody running one step ahead of the dark?
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I remain keen.
 
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Dake Jimson
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Billerica
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keen as a bean.
 
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