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Subject: Would I just lost the action? rss

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Joe Lutovsky
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This happened in a game last night.

Lando had taken expose as his action.

Howlrunner got a crit on him that said ignore pilot cards (such as expose).

So we flipped it down and carried on as if he now just hadn't taken an action.

Is that right?
 
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Robert M.
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RogueLieutenant wrote:
This happened in a game last night.

Lando had taken expose as his action.

Howlrunner got a crit on him that said ignore pilot cards (such as expose).

So we flipped it down and carried on as if he now just hadn't taken an action.

Is that right?

Expose says "ACTION: Until the end of the round...", but the crit says "All players must ignore your pilot ability..."

It could go either way, but I'd say the "ignore" means you handled it correctly.

EDIT: Oh, and it's worth mentioning (again/still) that unless you're using it in parallel with some other attack buff--which Lando almost certainly doesn't--Expose is not even as good as Focus. whistle
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Jeff Dunford
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For reference, here's a list of the damage cards:
http://critical-rocket.blogspot.ca/2012/10/star-wars-x-wing-...

I assume the one he took was:
Damage card wrote:
Injured Pilot
All players must ignore your pilot ability and all of your (pilot skill) upgrade cards.


In this case, Lando had already taken the "Expose" action. I don't think you can undo an action mid-turn. I would have ruled that from now on, Lando's pilot ability (granting a neighbouring ship an action after performing a green maneuver) and his elite talent (Expose) have no effect from now on. However, the action Lando took this turn, and any action a neighbouring ship took this turn (?), happened in the past and thus still occured... meaning Lando is still "exposed" for the rest of this round of combat.

Also, that particular damage card doesn't say to flip anything down (although some others do)... so I'm not sure where that ruling came from.

*edit* For example, if Lando had taken a Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) action instead, you wouldn't take away his Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) token, would you?
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Joe Lutovsky
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iNano78 wrote:
For reference, here's a list of the damage cards:
http://critical-rocket.blogspot.ca/2012/10/star-wars-x-wing-...

I assume the one he took was:
Damage card wrote:
Injured Pilot
All players must ignore your pilot ability and all of your (pilot skill) upgrade cards.


In this case, Lando had already taken the "Expose" action. I don't think you can undo an action mid-turn. I would have ruled that from now on, Lando's pilot ability (granting a neighbouring ship an action after performing a green maneuver) and his elite talent (Expose) have no effect from now on. However, the action Lando took this turn, and any action a neighbouring ship took this turn (?), happened in the past and thus still occured... meaning Lando is still "exposed" for the rest of this round of combat.

Also, that particular damage card doesn't say to flip anything down (although some others do)... so I'm not sure where that ruling came from.

*edit* For example, if Lando had taken a Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) action instead, you wouldn't take away his Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) token, would you?



This isn't so much about that expose was his action, than it says to ignore his elite talent cards.

Ignoring the card would mean flipping it face down pretty much. It basically comes down to which has more weight or precedence, the Expose card or the Crit, which are sending two different messages.
 
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Joe Lutovsky
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
RogueLieutenant wrote:
This happened in a game last night.

Lando had taken expose as his action.

Howlrunner got a crit on him that said ignore pilot cards (such as expose).

So we flipped it down and carried on as if he now just hadn't taken an action.

Is that right?

Expose says "ACTION: Until the end of the round...", but the crit says "All players must ignore your pilot ability..."

It could go either way, but I'd say the "ignore" means you handled it correctly.

EDIT: Oh, and it's worth mentioning (again/still) that unless you're using it in parallel with some other attack buff--which Lando almost certainly doesn't--Expose is not even as good as Focus. whistle


I'll keep that in mind.
 
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Robert M.
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iNano78 wrote:
In this case, Lando had already taken the "Expose" action. I don't think you can undo an action mid-turn. I would have ruled that from now on, Lando's pilot ability (granting a neighbouring ship an action after performing a green maneuver) and his elite talent (Expose) have no effect from now on.

If the crit directed players to, for instance, "discard one Skill upgrade card", I think you'd be right--the action doesn't just go away, and Lando remains at +1 Attack and -1 Agility. But here the crit doesn't say the card goes away, it says to ignore the card. If we continue to obey the card text, and Lando gets +1 Attack and -1 Agility for the rest of the round, then there's no reasonable definition of "ignore" that describes what we're doing.

[EDIT: Or maybe not. Now I'm second-guessing myself on my hypothetical, which probably means it's time to go think about something else for a while!]

To be clear, I think your interpretation is supportable--the rules don't say so, but I think it's reasonable to say that if you pay a cost (i.e., spend an Action) you should get the benefit. I also think it's the more conservative interpretation, or at least the one that's least likely to cause disruption at the table. But with this kind of extended time to think about it, I'm having trouble squaring it with the verb "ignore".

iNano78 wrote:
For example, if Lando had taken a Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) action instead, you wouldn't take away his Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) token, would you?

No, because there's no card text to be ignored--and even if there were, the operation of a Focus or Target Lock token doesn't depend on the card.

***

Regardless of the conclusion we come to (or not) in the thread, this is definitely a good reason to e-mail FFG's customer support. It's a situation that's not unlikely to come up, and a ruling here presumably also applies to Swarm Tactics and Marksmanship.
 
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Creed Buhallin
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This is an interesting one.

IMHO, I treat actions as something that is triggered, creates an effect, and then ends, even if that effect lingers. Ignoring the card means ignoring his ability to take the action - not the effect of that action.

As with so many things, though, the rules aren't tight enough to really support that so I'm applying more general rules interpretation to it, rather than anything specifically in the X-wing rules. That's probably how I'd play it, but I can see it falling out either way from FFG.
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Skaak
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I agree with iNano78; if Expose read "Increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility by 1" (so in other words, was a persistent effect as long as the card was equipped), then you would be correct to immediately ignore its effect. If you were using Draw Their Fire, Veteran Instincts, Elusiveness, etc. there's no question about that damage card; you would immediately stop using those benefits, unless you were somehow able to get rid of the critical hit.

However, Expose is an action, which means you had to explicitly activate it prior to the critical coming into effect. The stat adjustment is similar to gaining a focus or evade token, just without a physical component; it's a round-long adjustment for how your ship behaves.

If you received the critical before your action step, you would of course be unable to use Expose, but since you already activated it the critical card would have to read something like "All players must ignore your pilot ability, all of your (pilot skill) upgrade cards, and all benefits derived from your pilot ability and upgrade cards" (italics being the hypothetical addition) in order for you to lose the results of your action. Which would also mean you would have to immediately discard stress tokens gained from Expert Handling (and revert the barrel roll maneuver), retroactively negate any free actions taken by pilots granted by Squad Leader, and otherwise make the round a morass of revisionism.

Granted, I'm not Fantasy Flight, but this interpretation seems pretty straight-forward to me, particularly when you start looking at the other "action" based upgrade cards and thinking about how that ruling would affect them.
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Matthew Scott
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Skaak wrote:

If you received the critical before your action step, you would of course be unable to use Expose, but since you already activated it the critical card would have to read something like "All players must ignore your pilot ability, all of your (pilot skill) upgrade cards, and all benefits derived from your pilot ability and upgrade cards" (italics being the hypothetical addition) in order for you to lose the results of your action. Which would also mean you would have to immediately discard stress tokens gained from Expert Handling (and revert the barrel roll maneuver), retroactively negate any free actions taken by pilots granted by Squad Leader, and otherwise make the round a morass of revisionism.


This is almost exactly what I was going to say. Ignoring the pilot upgrade card means ignoring the ability to use the action. You are NOT ignoring the action; you are just ignoring the pilot's ability to take the action in the future. Consequently, this becomes exactly the same as the focus example mentioned above. If a crit card read "Remove all actions from the pilot's action bar" (how HORRIBLE would that be btw?), you wouldn't immediately remove focus, evade, TL tokens, right? Instead, you would recognize the pilot could still use any tokens that were still on the ship, but would be incapable of taking the actions again in the future.
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Jeff Dunford
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
iNano78 wrote:
For example, if Lando had taken a Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) action instead, you wouldn't take away his Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) token, would you?

No, because there's no card text to be ignored--and even if there were, the operation of a Focus or Target Lock token doesn't depend on the card.

***

Regardless of the conclusion we come to (or not) in the thread, this is definitely a good reason to e-mail FFG's customer support. It's a situation that's not unlikely to come up, and a ruling here presumably also applies to Swarm Tactics and Marksmanship.


Using a slightly different example, lets say the critical damage card is Damaged Sensor Array.
Damage card wrote:
Damaged Sensor Array
You cannot perform the actions listed in your action bar.
Action: Roll 1 attack die. On a (hit) result, flip this card facedown.


If Lando had taken a Focus token this turn (during the action phase that followed him taking his maneuver) or had a Target Lock from this or a previous turn, and during the combat phase he receives this face-up damage card, I don't think you'd take away his Focus token / Target Lock. It says he can't perform actions listed on his action bar - presumably from now on. What action he took earlier happened in the past. From now on (and until he flips the card down), he cannot perform Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) actions.

This is why I think "Injured Pilot" doesn't undo actions that were performed earlier in the turn. If the Marksmanship or Expose action was taken during the action phase, I don't see how the "Injured Pilot" damage card "undoes" that action. It just says that you can't use the pilot ability nor elite talent abilities (in this case, that action) anymore - e.g. from now on. If that ability was an action that has an ongoing effect from when it was last taken (earlier in the turn, before the damage card was handed out), I still think that action continues until its effect ends.

However, this is distinct from non-action pilot abilities and elite talents. For example, if Howlrunner takes an "Injured Pilot" damage card, I would rule that from now on Howlrunner's ability doesn't activate, so pilots that haven't fired yet won't get Howlrunner's bonus. But that's because it wasn't Howlrunner's action for the turn. It triggers on a case-by-case basis, not once per turn. Same goes for Biggs or Swarm Tactics, etc.

I think that's why it isn't worded like the "Damaged Cockpit" (e.g. "Pilot skill = 0") damage card, where it explicitly states "starting next turn." If it did, it would behave differently in cases like Howlrunner, Biggs, Swarm Tactics, etc.

(My understanding is that the "Damaged Cockpit" card is worded like that to prevent a high-skill pilot that has already attacked this turn from getting a second attack due to activating again when any skill-0 pilots would attack during the current combat phase)
 
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Matthew Scott
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iNano78 wrote:
Vorpal Sword wrote:
iNano78 wrote:
For example, if Lando had taken a Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) action instead, you wouldn't take away his Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) token, would you?

No, because there's no card text to be ignored--and even if there were, the operation of a Focus or Target Lock token doesn't depend on the card.

***

Regardless of the conclusion we come to (or not) in the thread, this is definitely a good reason to e-mail FFG's customer support. It's a situation that's not unlikely to come up, and a ruling here presumably also applies to Swarm Tactics and Marksmanship.


Using a slightly different example, lets say the critical damage card is Damaged Sensor Array.
Damage card wrote:
Damaged Sensor Array
You cannot perform the actions listed in your action bar.
Action: Roll 1 attack die. On a (hit) result, flip this card facedown.


If Lando had taken a Focus token this turn (during the action phase that followed him taking his maneuver) or had a Target Lock from this or a previous turn, and during the combat phase he receives this face-up damage card, I don't think you'd take away his Focus token / Target Lock. It says he can't perform actions listed on his action bar - presumably from now on. What action he took earlier happened in the past. From now on (and until he flips the card down), he cannot perform Focus or Target Lock (or Evade) actions.

This is why I think "Injured Pilot" doesn't undo actions that were performed earlier in the turn. If the Marksmanship or Expose action was taken during the action phase, I don't see how the "Injured Pilot" damage card "undoes" that action. It just says that you can't use the pilot ability nor elite talent abilities (in this case, that action) anymore - e.g. from now on. If that ability was an action that has an ongoing effect from when it was last taken (earlier in the turn, before the damage card was handed out), I still think it continues until its effect ends.

However, this is distinct from non-action pilot abilities and elite talents. For example, if Howlrunner takes an "Injured Pilot" damage card, I would rule that from now on Howlrunner's ability doesn't activate, so pilots that haven't fired yet won't get Howlrunner's bonus. But that's because it wasn't Howlrunner's action for the turn. It triggers on a case-by-case basis, not once per turn. Same goes for Biggs or Swarm Tactics, etc.

I think that's why it isn't worded like the "Damaged Cockpit" (e.g. "Pilot skill = 0") damage card, where it explicitly states "starting next turn." If it did, it would behave differently in cases like Howlrunner, Biggs, Swarm Tactics, etc.

(My understanding is that the "Damaged Cockpit" card is worded like that to prevent a high-skill pilot that has already attacked this turn from getting a second attack due to activating again when any skill-0 pilots would attack during the current combat phase)


Awesome that we used EXACTLY the same example to prove the point here.
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Creed Buhallin
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FWIW, I do see the fuzzy area Robert's worried about.

Because it says "ignore" the card, you're also ignoring the text which describes and defines the effect. So by ignoring that definition, you effectively zero out the effect.

I don't think that's the case, but it is notably different from something like Damaged Sensor Array which prohibits taking an action at a specific point in time.
 
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Bryan
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I agree with the other people in the thread.

Expose lets you take an action so its all ready taken. I would say the pilot ability would not work since the critical is taken before his pilot skill goes into effect, but since you all ready took the expose action it stays there since its the same as taking any other action. You just wont be able to use your elite card next turn.

I would say (elite action cards) would work that way and the elite cards with text would not work at all after the crit.
 
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Robert M.
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Buhallin wrote:
FWIW, I do see the fuzzy area Robert's worried about.

Because it says "ignore" the card, you're also ignoring the text which describes and defines the effect. So by ignoring that definition, you effectively zero out the effect.

I don't think that's the case, but it is notably different from something like Damaged Sensor Array which prohibits taking an action at a specific point in time.

Thanks, actually.

To clarify re: Damaged Sensor Array (DSA), taking the Evade, Focus, or Target Lock action grants you a token. Spending the token is totally separate from the action, so it's absolutely clear there that taking a DSA doesn't prevent you from spending a token you already have.

Along those lines, here's maybe a better way to make my point. The question hinges on which of the following is true:

1) Expose defines a discrete "object", comparable to a Focus token, that enters play when you take the action and leaves play at the end of the round.

2) The Expose card grants a continuous effect, triggered at a particular time (when you take the associated action) and with a particular duration (until the end of the round).

In case (1), the "token" is in play when the crit happens, and "ignore the card" simply means Lando can't take the Expose action again. In case (2), it's not a token but the card itself that grants the effect, and "ignore the card" effectively means "ignore the effect". Case (1) is the more user-friendly of the two interpretations because it makes Expose work like the token-based abilities which are clearly defined in the rules (and with which we're all more familiar). Additionally, it follows the desirable principle that if/when you pay the cost to activate Expose, you can't be denied the benefit.

But case (1) also requires the creation of a category of things that aren't tokens, but obey the same rules as tokens. This is... not a parsimonious way to resolve things, and is sort of analogous to invoking the intent of a rule--it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does reach beyond the available evidence. Case (2) is certainly less intuitive, but has the advantage of confining itself strictly to the rules text.

I honestly do see the arguments for a ruling either way, and since there are good arguments on both sides, we genuinely need a resolution from the designers.
 
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Creed Buhallin
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
But case (1) also requires the creation of a category of things that aren't tokens, but obey the same rules as tokens. This is... not a parsimonious way to resolve things, and is sort of analogous to invoking the intent of a rule--it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does reach beyond the available evidence. Case (2) is certainly less intuitive, but has the advantage of confining itself strictly to the rules text.

I think tokens are the wrong analogy to use here, and if we avoid them I don't think it's quite so wrong.

What we're really talking about is an effect which is created by taking the action, and lasts for a specific duration. That effect doesn't necessarily have to be an "Expose" effect.

Considering this more, I think there's also some precedent that effects are created independently of their cards. All the missiles, for instance, say "Discard this card to perform this attack." If you're dependent on the card being in play (and/or not ignored) for the effect, then discarding would hose the attack.

Here's a similar interesting scenario. Wedge fires at Fel's Wrath, and destroys him. Luke the fires at Fel's Wrath, inflicting a critical hit that comes up with the Stunned Pilot. What happens?

Preview: I think it has to do with whether we consider Wrath's ability a constant one, or a triggered one...
 
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Matthew Scott
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Perhaps it's helpful to consider this thematically? I'm going to make some assumptions and leaps of logic, but I think they're all 100% sound so just follow me, okay? Thanks. The idea behind Expose is that a pilot is placing himself in great danger in order to perform an attack that has a greater chance of hitting/dealing more damage to his target, right? In other words, Expose is somewhat of a tactical maneuver (like a barrel roll or a boost) but the adjustment is so slight that it isn't reflected on the play surface as an actual maneuver; it's simply a subtle "repositioning." Now when the pilot is injured, does that really eliminate the tactical offensive position that he already took? I would say no. (It helps to remember that all of these attacks are happening *basically* simultaneously.)

That in addition to my interpretation of the card text (which is that the card is granting the ability to take the action, not the action itself) leads me to believe that the Expose effect would persist for the remainder of the round.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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scomatt9 wrote:
Perhaps it's helpful to consider this thematically? I'm going to make some assumptions and leaps of logic, but I think they're all 100% sound so just follow me, okay? Thanks. The idea behind Expose is that a pilot is placing himself in great danger in order to perform an attack that has a greater chance of hitting/dealing more damage to his target, right? In other words, Expose is somewhat of a tactical maneuver (like a barrel roll or a boost) but the adjustment is so slight that it isn't reflected on the play surface as an actual maneuver; it's simply a subtle "repositioning." Now when the pilot is injured, does that really eliminate the tactical offensive position that he already took? I would say no. (It helps to remember that all of these attacks are happening *basically* simultaneously.)

That in addition to my interpretation of the card text (which is that the card is granting the ability to take the action, not the action itself) leads me to believe that the Expose effect would persist for the remainder of the round.


Looking at it thematically is one thing. Now consider the effect on the game. If the pilot is a high-skill pilot like Darth Vader or Wedge or Han Solo and takes Expose, he fires with one extra die during his combat phase, then later in the round takes an "Injured Pilot" damage card. If that undoes Expose, it is entirely to his advantage. Now the drawback of Expose is gone and he gets a higher agility for the rest of the round. Seems a little counter intuitive. But there are probably other examples of situations where a ship could benefit from a face-up damage card (e.g. "Thrust Control Fire" on Soontir Fel to give him a Focus that might save him later in the round; "Damaged Cockpit" providing pilot skill 0, which could give you pseudo-initiative with that pilot minus "simultaneous fire" - which is pretty good for Arvel Crynyd).
 
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Skaak
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
2) The Expose card grants a continuous effect, triggered at a particular time (when you take the associated action) and with a particular duration (until the end of the round).

... In case (2), it's not a token but the card itself that grants the effect, and "ignore the card" effectively means "ignore the effect".


Frankly, I don't think you can equate the card and its effect like this, because the effect is an explicitly triggered action. "Ignore the card" only makes sense to equate to "ignore the effect" if the effect is ongoing and not something that has already been triggered.

In other words, the card is not granting this effect. The action granted the effect (the card grants you the action, which after taking the critical you no longer have access to because you have to ignore the card).

Perhaps mentioning focus tokens was a poor choice on my part; I was not trying to equate the token to the +1/-1 effect as an object as much as I was trying to communicate that both are the results of an action, which is something that is distinct from an ongoing card effect that gets canceled as soon as the card is discarded or otherwise invalidated.
 
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Henrik Johansson
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A bit of topic, but I just have to ask...
Skaak wrote:
If you were using Draw Their Fire, Veteran Instincts, Elusiveness, etc. there's no question about that damage card; you would immediately stop using those benefits, unless you were somehow able to get rid of the critical hit.

Wouldn't that emmediate ignoring of veteran instincts allow a pilot to attack twice in a round?

Pilot A has skill 7 + Veteran instincts

- Skill 9 pilots attack (so A attacks).
- Skill 8 pilots attack, A is hit with a crit that says to ignore his elite talents. A is now skill 7.
- Skill 7 pilots attack. A attacks again?

EDIT
Skaak wrote:
According to the rules (page 5): "Combat phase: each ship may perform one attack".

So no bouble attack
 
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Matthew Scott
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Good point! I don't think this is off topic actually! I think it further supports the idea that the crit effect would start the next round. Or one could argue that the crit goes into effect immediately, BUT the rules specify that each ship can only attack one other ship per round meaning that it would be incapable of making that second attack. Hmmm....

Who knew that there would be so much complexity to crit cards???
 
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Skaak
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Smuggler wrote:
Wouldn't that emmediate ignoring of veteran instincts allow a pilot to attack twice in a round?


No. According to the rules (page 5): "Combat phase: each ship may perform one attack". This is also repeated multiple times on page 10, and possibly elsewhere (I stopped looking at that point).

The critical card goes into effect immediately when it is played. So if you had something that affected pilot skill, the Veteran Instincts ship would be evaluated as skill 7 going forward, but would not attack again when you reached that skill level because it had already attacked that round.
 
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Creed Buhallin
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scomatt9 wrote:
I think it further supports the idea that the crit effect would start the next round.

Crits go into effect as soon as they are suffered by the ship. There's nothing that indicates a delayed effect, and this bit (from the Simultaneous Attack Rule) pretty much confirms it:

It may perform an attack as normal during the Combat phase, although any faceup Damage cards just dealt to it may affect this attack.

Emphasis mine.

I think Skaak has it right - ships are limited to one attack per round, and neither Veteran Instincts or the Injured Pilot critical effect do anything to change that.

On a more general note, even if a lost Veteran Instincts would allow a second attack during a turn it doesn't mean it's not right according to the rules.
 
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Derrick Billings
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Smuggler wrote:
A bit off topic, but I just have to ask...
Skaak wrote:
If you were using Draw Their Fire, Veteran Instincts, Elusiveness, etc. there's no question about that damage card; you would immediately stop using those benefits, unless you were somehow able to get rid of the critical hit.

Wouldn't that emmediate ignoring of veteran instincts allow a pilot to attack twice in a round?

Pilot A has skill 7 + Veteran instincts

- Skill 9 pilots attack (so A attacks).
- Skill 8 pilots attack, A is hit with a crit that says to ignore his elite talents. A is now skill 7.
- Skill 7 pilots attack. A attacks again?


Would this count as rules lawyering? Just asking.

If precedent from other FFG games is any guide to possible future intent, other games have been explicitly clarified that if the turn order changes in the middle of a round, that you just keep going and play it as it lies whether anybody gets skipped or doubled up as a result. I happen to think the "one attack" language makes this unlikely, but who knows.

Also in other games, it generally seems a consistent interpretation that if a card creates a lasting effect, the effect persists even if the originating source is discarded or neutralized subsequently. So we'll see.
 
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Henrik Johansson
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Grimwalker wrote:
Smuggler wrote:
A bit off topic, but I just have to ask...
Skaak wrote:
If you were using Draw Their Fire, Veteran Instincts, Elusiveness, etc. there's no question about that damage card; you would immediately stop using those benefits, unless you were somehow able to get rid of the critical hit.

Wouldn't that emmediate ignoring of veteran instincts allow a pilot to attack twice in a round?

Pilot A has skill 7 + Veteran instincts

- Skill 9 pilots attack (so A attacks).
- Skill 8 pilots attack, A is hit with a crit that says to ignore his elite talents. A is now skill 7.
- Skill 7 pilots attack. A attacks again?


Would this count as rules lawyering? Just asking.

Possibly Any way, as others have pointed out, the rules clearly states each ship get ONE attack per round. So even "lawyering" the sequence still woldn't be enough to alow a second attack.

Now before some one points out gunner or cluster missiles, thouse would fall under the golde rule. When text on a card contradicts the rules, the card trumphs the rules.
 
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