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Karl Fritz
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Any chance the rules will be posted soon?
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King of the Dead
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Just curious, what are the problems you see with this model?

I've seen pretty much nothing but good press and amped up excitement levels with companies pre releasing their rules.

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Rob G
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Making rules available to BGG/Kickstarter folks is really something you should consider if you want to spin up good PR and word of mouth on the game.

You have said you have revised the rules but have provided no specifics. There have been no independent reviews of the game that demonstrated play throughs or otherwise explained what has changed.

You are essentially relying on any backers or promoters to trust you; and while people here can be a friendly bunch, you have no base of work which we can refer to. If you have folks involved who have worked on published games or been active in BGG or related forums, make them more visible.

If your concern about making the rules available is a reduction in overall sales, you may have done market research to determine just how severe that will be. The potential messages it sends out though include (1) you don't have enough confidence that people will view your rules updates as solid, (2) your new components are not high enough quality to merit purchasing the game on its own, or (3) you do not trust your potential customer base.

I played Supremacy to death back in the 80's, but without a major overhaul I don't think it would suit my interests today. What's your strategy to convince someone like me (who spends over $1K/year on board games) to make the leap now rather than make a more informed decision down the line?
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Daniel Kearns
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Strange that one wouldn't release the rules when a rules revision is the only reason to buy a new version (old copies are quite affordable).

That is, of course, assuming that the revised rules are actually done.
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Gentlemen:

I don't see any reason to doubt Marshall's word that he has new rules. It sounds like he'd be willing to send you a draft copy if you contact him directly.

Glynr
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Daniel Kearns
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marsbarr wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Strange that one wouldn't release the rules when a rules revision is the only reason to buy a new version (old copies are quite affordable).

That is, of course, assuming that the revised rules are actually done.



Yes, they are actually done. They do need a little editing and cleaning up. It's not the final copy.

lol.. Let me ask you this: If the only reason to buy the new version is to get the new rules, then why would you need to buy it if you can download the rules for free?


Because I try not to steal intellectual property I guess.

For myself and others, I presume that the new rules are so integrated into the new game design that you need the full set to actually use them.

Posting the rules will only help you. If you think otherwise, it suggests that you do not understand your product AND more importantly, your audience.

marsbarr wrote:
Nobody gave away free copies of their rules back then. How many copies do game companies typically sell today? 500? 2,000? Coincidence?


Nobody kickstarted games back then either. Also, where are your sales numbers coming from? They seem off.
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Karl Fritz
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marsbarr wrote:
[snip]... Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

Squad Leader sold around 200,000 copies back in the day. The old Supremacy sold 250,000. Nobody gave away free copies of their rules back then. How many copies do game companies typically sell today? 500? 2,000? Coincidence?

Yes, even if you didn’t give out your rules, somebody would buy it , scan it, and post it on the internet now to share anyways. But why go out of your way to shoot yourself in the foot?

The idea is that if people see how it plays, then they will want to buy it. From my experience, they don’t. They use it more as a reason not to buy. It raises objections in their minds. I used to buy 4-6 games a year. I have bought far fewer since rules are downloadable. I think the tendency is to download the rules first, scan them briefly until you spot a couple of rules you don’t like, then decide not to buy. I didn’t even try the game. Maybe it works out totally different than I thought when you actually PLAY it. Maybe a couple of tweaks and it would be a great game. I’ll never know and the game company never made a penny.

[snip]

Marshall


I disagree with this. The reason I (personally) would buy a new version of a game is because it gives me a complete value add. If only one or two rules were changed and the components don't surpass the level of the previous version, I will most certainly pass on the new version.

But if you are selling me a game where buying a new copy over the old one makes sense, you are doing things right. There are plenty of examples where new editions came out where buying the new version made sense. I had an old copy of Hannibal, Cosmic Encounter, Vinci, War of the Ring, Up Front, etc, but still bought the new version. Why? Updated components. Rules played some part, but not much. Heck in the case of War of the Ring, updated components were sold separately, but in the end, I still bought (well, it's pre-ordered now) the 2nd edition of War of the Ring.

If all you are doing is a straight components reprint with a slight tweak to the rules, you haven't done much to earn my money if I already have a copy that works just fine. I think you mentioned that you changed the map a bit. That in itself may be a selling point you might want to play up.

There are a lot of games out there and buyers need to make good, informed decisions. You did mention that there are games you have not decided to purchase after reading the rules. That's not a bad thing and it seems like good economic sense to me.

Provide value and people will pay you. Offer anything less and you are just wasting everybody else's time and money.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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marsbarr wrote:


Yes, even if you didn’t give out your rules, somebody would buy it , scan it, and post it on the internet now to share anyways. But why go out of your way to shoot yourself in the foot?


Some people might say you are already shooting yourself in the foot by not showing the rules.

Quote:

The idea is that if people see how it plays, then they will want to buy it. From my experience, they don’t.


I'd argue that Kickstarter "Backers" are not ordinary "Buyers".

Most of BGG population probably came to BGG to read up on reviews and demos of games they are considering to buy. That's probably a good number of your Kickstarter audience. We're in an age of information, and we tend to invest our money in things that we can trust. Trust can be earned by providing information.

Withholding information probably causes distrust.


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King of the Dead
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Your analogy to music is flawed.

Music is music and can be used straight after the download.
You don't need to build a player to enjoy it.

Game rules are not stand alone products. You can't download the rules to Supremacy, read them off of your computer screen and start playing the game.
You need the physical board, the cards, and all the pieces.
Sure, some people will take the effort of creating all that stuff from scratch. But guess what.... Those people would have done that anyway because they like the crafting aspect of the hobby enough to go through the pain in the ass of doing it. They're statistically insignificant.

Everyone that wants your game wants the whole thing, including the board, cards and pieces. Not just the rules.

Seeing the rules will allow those people to decide if they want to give you money for the full package.
Being told they won't be allowed to see them until they are all in will likely turn them off to the whole project.
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Daniel Kearns
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marsbarr wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Strange that one wouldn't release the rules when a rules revision is the only reason to buy a new version (old copies are quite affordable).

That is, of course, assuming that the revised rules are actually done.



lol..... Dude, we already did! Back on the 23rd. Where have you been?


Could you provide a link? I still can't find where you've released the rules.

Also, the 23rd predates many of your comments above that seem to suggest you would not release them.
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Daniel Kearns
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marsbarr wrote:

Old versions are around $60-80 on ebay now used if you consider that affordable. When there aren't many around they offten shoot up to $150-250.


This is kinda awkward but if you click on the link below:

Supremacy

On the left is a link advertising many copies on AMAZON that can be had for under $30.

I bought one off of ebay for $25 last year if a I recall.

Your appraisal is off.
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Rob G
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Compare the Supremacy Kickstarter with one that has its own share of controversy, Upon a Fable.

Outside of one's thoughts on those behind that game, their project has:

- Planned forethought on the entire project, assisted through an outside team who focuses on helping just such efforts

- A formal PR campaign

- Targeted rewards that are in line with where board game backers find value. (Personal note - I do think the "your name as a resource card company" was spot on)

- Solid details on components, including artwork and mock-ups.

- A (paid for) review by a leading board game site (Dice Tower)

People can see the components, consider the rules, understand what they are getting, and make a decently informed decision.

They are 80% of the way to their total with more than two weeks to go on their campaign, despite having quite a few voices raised about possible shady business practices from the apparent owner/backer of the publishing company.

The overall numbers of supporters required and magnitude of backing dollars between this project and that one are comparable. They have demonstrated far greater success to date while starting with a far more significant handicap.

Understanding basic Kickstarter backing trends and money flow, the Supremacy project is not on track to come anywhere close to success. The discussion topics at hand here come from a number of tactical issues (shirts, rules, board), but there are not the true issue. I suspect a more strategic level focus is required to shake things up.
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Rob G
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Sounds like you are taking feedback and making good changes. Glad to see it and I look forward to the new info.

Are you considering cancelling the current project, retooling things a bit, and relaunching after a while? It sounds bad, but I believe Upon a Fable went that route, and I know it worked (ahem) wonders for Days of Wonder on their Small World 2 campaign. (You don't need to reply to this, just wanted to point out that this is a perfectly viable consideration despite how it might appear at first glance)
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Daniel Kearns
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marsbarr wrote:

Here’s a question: Is it better to finish unfunded or cancel before hand?


That's a good question. I guess I'd say cancelling would be better. It would show realism and decisiveness and let people who have already supported off the hook mentally.

If it goes the distance and doesn't fund, I think that would be more of an enthusiasm killer than pulling it deliberately.
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Rob G
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With exactly zero experience in this from the campaign side, I'd say I agree with Daniel.

To me it shows active recognition of and response to issues. If it's pulled with a note to backers explaining about the rework and setting new launch expectations, that keeps them interested and lets you start fresh with a new audience.

I have exactly zero knowledge of Kickin It guys other than their involvement with the example project I listed, but I was impressed with the info they provided up front (for free) and would find their overall services tempting as a Kickstarter project initiator.

www.kickinitgames.com/consult/

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King of the Dead
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marsbarr wrote:
Do you think some good demo videos on play and reviews would be enough to convince you to buy w/o the rules?


Only if you had a really great looking mockup of the new board, cards, and pieces instead of the components of the old game and a map you're still pretty half-assed about using, which is what you've shown us so far.

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Corey H
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marsbarr wrote:

I guess you might be able to find some good deals. I just checked the amazon site. They have one for $69.99 and one for $259.95.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dap...


And they have one for $21.42, $24.99 and $31.99 too (in fact I saw 13 for sale).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B001HJJ41O/ref=dp_olp...
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King of the Dead
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You really don't know what you're doing, do you?

It's become painfully obvious that you just have absolutely no idea.

$5k for a mock up?
No.

You get your designs done and you print one copy out at a Kinkos. Twenty buck on the outside.
Mount it on a piece of foam-core or even an old game board you have floating around. including a glue stick that's about five dollars.
The cards are included in the Kinkos copy price.

For the pieces you either find the exact bulk pieces you'll use for the finished game or you grab some Green Stuff and start sculpting and then painting. Price here will vary quite a bit depending on which way you're going to go.
Could be as little as fifty, could be a couple hundred.

Set it all up the way it would look when playing, take a picture, put it on the front of the KS and everywhere else you can think of.
That's pretty much free.

So, no, you don't need five thousand dollars for a nice looking mock up of the finished product.
What you do need is a plan, some determination, patience, and an actual product to try to sell us on.

It's become pretty obvious at this point that you don't have any of that.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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marsbarr wrote:
Nazhuret wrote:
You really don't know what you're doing, do you?

It's become painfully obvious that you just have absolutely no idea.

$5k for a mock up?
No.

You get your designs done and you print one copy out at a Kinkos. Twenty buck on the outside.
Mount it on a piece of foam-core or even an old game board you have floating around. including a glue stick that's about five dollars.
The cards are included in the Kinkos copy price.

For the pieces you either find the exact bulk pieces you'll use for the finished game or you grab some Green Stuff and start sculpting and then painting. Price here will vary quite a bit depending on which way you're going to go.
Could be as little as fifty, could be a couple hundred.

Set it all up the way it would look when playing, take a picture, put it on the front of the KS and everywhere else you can think of.
That's pretty much free.

So, no, you don't need five thousand dollars for a nice looking mock up of the finished product.
What you do need is a plan, some determination, patience, and an actual product to try to sell us on.

It's become pretty obvious at this point that you don't have any of that.




lol….. Seems like the only thing you know how to do is launch personal attacks.

“You get your designs done”. Exactly. How? Armature quality is not good enough. We already have that. You must have the pro stuff. Do you think Graphic Designers work for free? Do you know what they charge? Do you know what it costs to get sculptures made? Molds made? A run of pieces made? Yeah, you’re looking at about $5k for all that. (and that’s likely shooting low)

Except for you. You can magically pull out some modeling clay in your kitchen and run down to Kinkos this afternoon with a glue stick and turn out a pro level result for $50-200.

Wow. It is pretty obvious now that we don’t have a clue. Good thing we found you. Since it’s so easy and only costs $200, why don’t you do it for us?

That’s a great idea! We’ll send you a check as soon as we get your work and Daniel Downer approves of it. When can you have it to us? All our troubles are solved!! Hurray!!


This are the kind of responses that make me decide to not support a kickstarter campaign.
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At this point I'm praying that you don't actually have the legal rights to this game.

It's obvious you're not going to make your KS goal.
It's obvious that, even if you did, you would have no idea what to do with the money in order to make a good game.
It's obvious that you are obnoxious people that I wouldn't feel good about giving money to.

I'm just hoping this is exactly what it feels like: a couple of dudes with some home-brew ideas that decided to jump onto KS with no legal standing as to the rights of the Supremacy name.
If you actually, really and truly have the legal rights to this....

Ugh.

So much for the hope of a good reboot.
We've just got these jack asses tying up the rights for a while.
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Man, I can not tell you how excited I was to see this game on Kickstarter. Now based on the comments here I can not tell you how disappointed I am with what I see. Professionalism goes a long way.
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Corey H
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Nazhuret wrote:
At this point I'm praying that you don't actually have the legal rights to this game.

It's obvious you're not going to make your KS goal.
It's obvious that, even if you did, you would have no idea what to do with the money in order to make a good game.
It's obvious that you are obnoxious people that I wouldn't feel good about giving money to.

I'm just hoping this is exactly what it feels like: a couple of dudes with some home-brew ideas that decided to jump onto KS with no legal standing as to the rights of the Supremacy name.
If you actually, really and truly have the legal rights to this....

Ugh.

So much for the hope of a good reboot.
We've just got these jack asses tying up the rights for a while.


My understanding is that they bought the rights to the expired trademark (ie supremacy and the logo). Anyone can actually make a revised version of a game if they change enough of the components (and lets face it with the original game, there was plenty to improved upon).

It is kind of sad to see this kind of thing go down. Someone puts the effort to remake a game that they obviously really like. Then due to inexperience, they alienate one of there primary sources for backing and most likely good advice and free labor. A presence on bgg before they used KS would have done wonders.



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John Peterson
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I thought the 1 page, pamphlet-style rules was lacking in details. When we played (and this was a long time ago), I think we had to play by some "house rules" to answer questions that weren't covered by the rules...
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Matt Robertson
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Length of rules should be secondary to clarity of rules.

If your rules are clear, complete, and concise. You have been successful. I have seen games that have 1 page of rules with a 5 page FAQ. shake

Good rules should not require an FAQ.

Also, if you are planning to release expansions and mini-expansions, please give thought to re-releasing the rules with expansion rules integrated in the rules in a logical linear manner. One of my big beefs with the old Supremacy was the lack of well integrated rules for expansions. Yes, there was field Marshall's handbook and mega supremacy book, but neither were well integrated in an easy to use linear (by phase) manner.
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marsbarr wrote:
We just finished the first rough draft of the combined mini rules!! Yes, we already know they are probably full of issues, conflicts and unanswered questions. They are actually rules from another game we created. We simply spliced them onto Supremacy, so they’ll need some work.


Oh Jesus.
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