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Subject: VPs for controlled enemy states rss

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JOE LIBRANDI
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VPs are earned for VP cities and state conversion. When an enemy state is converted, do you receive VPs for all the cities in the state that were already controlled? Rule 17.2.4 seems to imply this.

For instance, a state has 6 city VPs. When the 6th VP city is captured, are 12 VPs gained?
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Ken
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joe6778 wrote:

VPs are earned for VP cities and state conversion. When an enemy state is converted, do you receive VPs for all the cities in the state that were already controlled? Rule 17.2.4 seems to imply this.


Being horridly technical, there are some CSA VP for important locations like the Ironworks.

Quote:
For instance, a state has 6 city VPs. When the 6th VP city is captured, are 12 VPs gained?


Again, being horribly technical, it's worth specifying what's permanent and what's not. To convert the state, you have to capture all of the VP cities, so you'll have gained 6VP to qualify. The 6 bonus VP are permanently earned once the conversion happens. The 6 you got from capturing and holding the cities can be lost if the city is reoccupied by your opponent.

Also, you need to hold the cities at the end of a turn to trigger conversion. As you've phrased your question, it's possible to read it as "the moment I've taken the last city..." which wouldn't be the case.
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Right, but what I'm trying to clarify is: are the VP cities counted AGAIN when the state is converted? This will make a big difference in regard to the Union's chances of winning.

It seems that the answer is "yes".

So that means that the VPs for Missouri scored at the end of turn one include the VP cities already captured (and counted in the starting Union VPs) plus the conversion VPs. Correct?
 
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Dave Turansky
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Yes.
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Actually, after re-reading the rules, I don't think that's correct. In the 1864 scenario, the Union begins with 36 VPs for Missouri, Kentucky, and West Virginia- 18 for state conversion and 18 VPs for the cities themselves. If the Union received VPs for the cities upon capture, and then conversion/city VPs upon conversion, the Union would start with 18 + 18 + 18VPs = 54VPs for the three states. (I'm reading the 3rd ED unofficial rules.)

So I think the proper interpretation of the rule is that you score city VPs as they're captured and then just add the state's city VP total for state conversion at the end of the turn.
 
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Ken
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joe6778 wrote:

Right, but what I'm trying to clarify is: are the VP cities counted AGAIN when the state is converted? This will make a big difference in regard to the Union's chances of winning.


Well, that's why I was being pedantic.

You always earn VP for holding cities in neutral or enemy territory. When you convert a state, you earn a bonus equal to the VP total of the cities in the state that is permanent. So you end up with 2x the VP, but of different "flavors." You can lose the ones for the cities. The bonus is permanent.
 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Excellent. That's the answer I was looking for.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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FWIW I do not agree that the state conversion 'bonus' victory points are "permanent". If the opponent were to reverse the conversion, those points would be lost.
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Ken
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deadkenny wrote:
FWIW I do not agree that the state conversion 'bonus' victory points are "permanent". If the opponent were to reverse the conversion, those points would be lost.


Can you point to a rule that says this? There's only the rules that award the bonus, not one that takes it away. There's also no rule that says you can only earn the bonus once, so if the state swaps back and forth, the bonus is earned multiple times. That means that whoever converts a state first will be the only one that can get a lead from it and every other conversion is either restoring the differential to in VP to what it was before or after the state was converted.
 
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Fred Finkenbinder
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17.2.4 states that VPs for the cities AND conversion CAN be lost if all VP cities are re-taken by the opponent.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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perfalbion wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
FWIW I do not agree that the state conversion 'bonus' victory points are "permanent". If the opponent were to reverse the conversion, those points would be lost.


Can you point to a rule that says this? There's only the rules that award the bonus, not one that takes it away. There's also no rule that says you can only earn the bonus once, so if the state swaps back and forth, the bonus is earned multiple times. That means that whoever converts a state first will be the only one that can get a lead from it and every other conversion is either restoring the differential to in VP to what it was before or after the state was converted.


From the 3rd edition rules:

Quote:
17.2.4 VP’s Equal to VP City Value for State Conversion: A player receives VPs for the control of VP cities in neutral states just as he does for enemy VP cities. In addition, when a neutral state joins his side, he receives VP’s equal to the VP city point total for that state. These VP’s are in addition to those he received for the cities themselves. Thus, Missouri is worth 6 Points for joining and 6 Points for its cities. When a player has control of all VP cities in an enemy state at the end of a turn, that state is converted to being neutral towards him. In addition, he receives VP’s equal to the VP city total for this conversion. These are awarded in addition to the VP’s for the cities themselves. Thus, Tennessee is worth 27 VP’s to the Union: 14 for its VP cities and 13 for its conversion (the ironworks is not a VP city and thus does not give a second VP for conversion). VP’s awarded for gaining control of a neutral state or for converting an enemy state are only lost if the enemy player manages to retake and hold all the VP cities in that state at the end of a Game-Turn. Simply retaking one or two VP cities will not cause conversion points to be lost (although VP’s for the cities themselves do change hands).


Underline added

While the rule number, 17.2.4, was added for the 3rd edition, I do not believe that the contents of the rule itself has been changed since the original '83 rules.
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Dave Turansky
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That's correct; a state can be reconverted and the conversion bonus is then lost, so it's not a "permanent" bonus. That is not a change from the original 1983 rules. I have seen it happen where the Confederate player recaptured every VP city in a state which previously had been converted. The state thereafter was "liberated" and once again was friendly territory to the Confederacy and no longer neutral to the Union.

This isn't so difficult a concept. If you capture every VP city in KY except Paducah, you will earn 6 VP's. If you capture every VP city in KY, you will have converted KY and earned 14 VP's total. You get 1 VP for each VP city point ( 7 total) and the conversion bonus doubles that to 14. If your opponent thereafter captures a 1 VP city, say Mill Springs, you will have 13 VP points until you retake it.

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Fred Finkenbinder
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Well, technically all VP cities in Kentucky except Louisville are worth 1 VP (Louisville is 2), but yes, Dave is correct.

Darn my OCD!
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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DaveTu wrote:
That's correct; a state can be reconverted and the conversion bonus is then lost, so it's not a "permanent" bonus. That is not a change from the original 1983 rules. I have seen it happen where the Confederate player recaptured every VP city in a state which previously had been converted. The state thereafter was "liberated" and once again was friendly territory to the Confederacy and no longer neutral to the Union.

This isn't so difficult a concept. If you capture every VP city in KY except Paducah, you will earn 6 VP's. If you capture every VP city in KY, you will have converted KY and earned 14 VP's total. You get 1 VP for each VP city point ( 7 total) and the conversion bonus doubles that to 14. If your opponent thereafter captures a 1 VP city, say Mill Springs, you will have 13 VP points until you retake it.


Exactly. While there are many areas that were ambiguous in the original '83 rules, IMHO, this is not one of them. How the VP's are earned, and potentially lost, is pretty well laid out. There are even specific states given as examples, underlining that you get the VP value of the cities, PLUS another VP bonus equal to that for converting the state. The only area where I can see some confusion regarding losing the conversion bonus VPs is in the case of the neutral states. Say the CSA manages to initially convert Kentucky to his side. The rules state that he would get the bonus for converting the state, and Kentucky would then be treated as friendly to the CSA. If the USA later converts Kentucky, he would then clearly get the bonus. However, would the CSA lose those conversion points? Normally points are not lost when the enemy converts one of your states. I think that the Kentucky conversion bonus VP's would be lost by the CSA, however, that is the one instance I can think of where there might be some question. If the USA converts Tennessee, and then the CSA later converts it back, there is no doubt that the USA loses the Tennessee conversion VP's.
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Ken
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I stand corrected!

Out of curiosity, has anyone seen reconversion happen?
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Dave would probably have some more 'legit' instances where it happened. The only one I experienced, way back when, was the basis of the example I gave. The CSA actually converted Kentucky, and the USA eventually converted it to their side. Mind you, my early games tended to be 'wild and woolly' affairs, where neither side knew what they were 'supposed' to be doing. The CSA would often go super aggressive early on. If the USA managed to weather the storm, the CSA would usually burn itself out and die a horrible death later on. Of course we actually had to play it before we started to clue into that. I expect that a really competent player would have beaten any of us handily.
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Dave Turansky
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I remember one game I had with Pete Walsh where he re-converted Mississippi. Neither of us recalled a game which we had played where that had happened. A strong Confederate player would always be trying to recapture weakly garrisoned VP's, but to liberate a converted state is quite a feat. I think I had the choice between preventing it and converting NC, and I chose the latter.
 
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