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Subject: 54 cards corp decks rss

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Hany Hebisha
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Would like to ask the community how they feel about 54 cards corp decks ?

I have played many games with my 49 cards corp decks, but sometimes I fail to draw any of my 18 ICE and lose early in the game, can't find much to trim from the deck to add more ICE, so how about adding 3 more ICE, one economy card and a 2 pointer agenda ?

Have you ever made or faced a 54 cards corp competitive deck ?

Thoughts ?

Cheers
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Tobin Lopes
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HHebisha wrote:
Would like to ask the community how they feel about 54 cards corp decks ?

I have played many games with my 49 cards corp decks, but sometimes I fail to draw any of my 18 ICE and lose early in the game, can't find much to trim from the deck to add more ICE, so how about adding 3 more ICE, one economy card and a 2 pointer agenda ?

Have you ever made or faced a 54 cards corp competitive deck ?

Thoughts ?

Cheers


I ran a 54c HB deck that worked well. My motivation was watering down the agendas And having a bit more ICE. I don't have any issues with going to 54 if the deck and my style, tendencies, and preferences call for it. I have an NBN that is 49 right now but if I feel 5 more cards would make it better, ESP. With Project Beale forthcoming, then I will do that.

I play the game. The game doesn't play me. If I rigidly conform to a 49c max without reason then I let the game play me.

My two cents.

-tpl
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Vincent Perry
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Find your worst asset or operation, replace it with the best of the three ice you would add.

I know cutting cards can be tough. Be strong!
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tobinlopes wrote:
I ran a 54c HB deck that worked well. My motivation was watering down the agendas And having a bit more ICE.
...


Hmm... I did the back-of-the-envelope calculations, and I think the watering down agendas is essentially moot. A 49 card, 20 agenda point deck going to a 54 card, 22 agenda point deck lowers the average number of agenda points per card by less than 0.2%. Of course, your deck will really be consisting of real cards, not averages, so a few possibilities:

7 agendas: adding an agenda increases your agenda density, by about 3.7%!
8 agendas: adding an agenda still increases your agenda density, by about 2% this time.
9 agendas: adding an agenda marginally increases agenda density, by 0.8%
10 agendas: This is the critical point. Here your deck was more than 20% agendas before (marginally), so adding 5 cards which are 20% agendas lowers the chance, by 0.2%
11 agendas: Adding an agenda to this lowers the density by about 1%
12 agendas: A 1.7% decrease here.
13 agendas: A 2.3% decrease here.

You can of course have more agendas, but here's the point: If agenda density is something you want to lower, adding 5 extra cards isn't going to help. If it would help, well, maybe you should consider changing some of your agendas first?

Note: I'm not saying there's no reason to play a 54 card corp deck. Just, agenda density is at worst actually a negative, and at best, is extremely minor.
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Kevin Kennedy
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I was thinking about this too. In some cases, it seems like having a few extra cards would be nice in cases where I want a few specific cards to complete the deck or want to have a specific set of assets while maintaining a high ratio of ice.

However, this doesn't actually dilute your deck by a noticeable amount. Further, it means now you are less likely to draw each card in your deck than you were before. In other words, once you get to 54 cards, if you can remove the 5 cards you least want to see (including 2 agenda points), your deck will be stronger (assuming not all cards are necessary).
 
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Ian Toltz
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Putting more cards in your deck doesn't increase the number of cards you're going to draw in any given game. That's the real number you need to work with. Deck size is a red herring.
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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My current Corp, HB ToL, 90% winning ratio, 54 cards!

I manage 10 Agenda cards (only 2 of them are 3 pointers), 20 ICE (only 4 don't have the ETR and one of these is Janus, an almost ETR ICE), 15 Operation and 9 Assets.

It's the best deck I've made!
 
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Steven Tu
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oDESGOSTO wrote:
My current Corp, HB ToL, 90% winning ratio, 54 cards!

I manage 10 Agenda cards (only 2 of them are 3 pointers), 20 ICE (only 4 don't have the ETR and one of these is Janus, an almost ETR ICE), 15 Operation and 9 Assets.

It's the best deck I've made!


Interesting, how does ToL interact with 5 cost agendas? Are you just 1 advancing, leave it on the table, then ToL next turn?

Is that significantly better than install, 2 advance, than 3 advance next turn?
 
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Gary Kenyon
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My Jinteki deck has just seen an increase to 54 cards, I haven't tested it yet though. I am more than happy to add another 2 point agenda and 4 extra cards that will make my deck just that slight bit more potent
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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Tuism wrote:
oDESGOSTO wrote:
My current Corp, HB ToL, 90% winning ratio, 54 cards!

I manage 10 Agenda cards (only 2 of them are 3 pointers), 20 ICE (only 4 don't have the ETR and one of these is Janus, an almost ETR ICE), 15 Operation and 9 Assets.

It's the best deck I've made!


Interesting, how does ToL interact with 5 cost agendas? Are you just 1 advancing, leave it on the table, then ToL next turn?

Is that significantly better than install, 2 advance, than 3 advance next turn?


To feed ToL I use 3x Ice Wall and 3x Agg.Secretary.

I usually use ToL to overscore Proj.Vitruvius or to score Mand.Upgrades / Priority Req. I also score Agendas through Biotic Labour.
With Proj. Vitruvius I'm able to recycle used ToL or Biotic Labour. I also play 3x Archieved Memories to backup some Agenda lost to Acc. Beta Test, which I'm not affraid to use due to the amount of Archieves recurring I have in my deck.

Once the engine has started, with any of those cards set I can score any Agenda I want. The only push I have to make is for Mandatory Upgrades, but once scored is game over.
 
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Allan Clements
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I quite like 54 card decks. I feel it helps against Noise, as often I end up in a situation where I need more time to score agendas but my deck runs out. (especially in 7 or 8 agenda decks)
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Steven Tu
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oDESGOSTO wrote:
Tuism wrote:
oDESGOSTO wrote:
My current Corp, HB ToL, 90% winning ratio, 54 cards!

I manage 10 Agenda cards (only 2 of them are 3 pointers), 20 ICE (only 4 don't have the ETR and one of these is Janus, an almost ETR ICE), 15 Operation and 9 Assets.

It's the best deck I've made!


Interesting, how does ToL interact with 5 cost agendas? Are you just 1 advancing, leave it on the table, then ToL next turn?

Is that significantly better than install, 2 advance, than 3 advance next turn?


To feed ToL I use 3x Ice Wall and 3x Agg.Secretary.

I usually use ToL to overscore Proj.Vitruvius or to score Mand.Upgrades / Priority Req. I also score Agendas through Biotic Labour.
With Proj. Vitruvius I'm able to recycle used ToL or Biotic Labour. I also play 3x Archieved Memories to backup some Agenda lost to Acc. Beta Test, which I'm not affraid to use due to the amount of Archieves recurring I have in my deck.

Once the engine has started, with any of those cards set I can score any Agenda I want. The only push I have to make is for Mandatory Upgrades, but once scored is game over.


Oh my mistake, I thought you meant only 2 of them are 2 pointers - 3 pointers you said. That makes much more sense
 
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mathew rynich
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Small deck size is about forming a strategy around a handful of cards so you are maximizing your chance of actually drawing at least one of those cards each game.

Larger decks will be more random unless you have a bunch of fetch abilities as the corp. It also make you more resistant to decking.

Have you reached a just noticeable difference in performance by jumping from 49 to 54 cards. Probably not. The percentage difference is small.

I tend to make 49 or even 45 card decks to ensure anything that I pull is part of a tightly constructed strategy, and my deck construction plan is focused. It's a matter of play style.
 
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Jack Keys
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phillosmaster wrote:
Small deck size is about forming a strategy around a handful of cards so you are maximizing your chance of actually drawing at least one of those cards each game.

Larger decks will be more random unless you have a bunch of fetch abilities as the corp. It also make you more resistant to decking.

Have you reached a just noticeable difference in performance by jumping from 49 to 54 cards. Probably not. The percentage difference is small.

I tend to make 49 or even 45 card decks to ensure anything that I pull is part of a tightly constructed strategy, and my deck construction plan is focused. It's a matter of play style.


I'm with you on this. My corporation decks tend to be 45 cards. I used to go to 49, but I've found I like that little bit of extra consistency.
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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I had played a SEA-Scorched deck with 45 cards.
It was a good deck to play back in the Core Set days but right now is outdated.

Another 45 card I'd played that time was a NBN Fast Advance 45 card deck. Also outdated today.

What I like in a 54 card deck is having tools and answers to all the problems I face without having a "time" to play a certain deck.

I thought this in my Runner build and then in my Corp and found out the key is not fast or slow but midrange. 49 is good at midrange but my deck really needs those extra cards to set the play!
 
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Bill Irons
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but the thing is you're wrong about having all the tools to use. They might be there but you're not drawing any more cards. You're just lowering the chance that you will draw those cards that you really need.

I use 49 cards because it lowers agenda density while not affecting chance at drawing specific cards too much.

I would never use 54 cards in a deck, espeically considering I have limited ways of fast advancing in my deck and also fairly limited econ cards (i rely on melange and the deck works even if i don't draw it)
5 extra cards would just kill the deck.
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Carlos Saldanha
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Nobody is right or wrong, everybody has his playstyle and his vision about the game.

My deck is built to afford me the time to wait untill I draw the cards I need, offering protection to my Agendas in deck and Assets in Remotes.
As I said before, I have a 90% success with this build (1 loss in 10 games) against several Runner decks including my own (played by other players). I even lend this Corp deck and played against it and lost as a Runner.

So, 54 card works for me, pretty well!
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Jethro Hendrickx
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Maths says 49 is better than 54. Subjective feeling may say otherwise.
I'll only move on to 54 cards the moment I feel being out of cards and loose is a potential danger.

If you'd happen to have a good tutor mechanism, I'd rather go from 3 to 2 copies of a given card, than increasing decksize. If you don't have a tutor, 54 is simlpy less consistent.

You really have to look at the percentages, a full deck; no matter the size, is always 100%. This 100% consist of % economy, ice, tricks, ... You decide the ratio, total will always be 100%.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Depending on the agenda mix you want, this can be helpful.

For example: Lets say you have a deck with 49 cards/21 agenda points currently. (Possibly, you have great 1 pointers like Breaking News/Hostile takeover that you NEED, and thats why you arent at 20). Lets say you could swap a 2 pointer like PSF, for a 3 Pointer like Priority Requisition. This gives you 22 agenda points. Now you add 5 more non-agenda cards to the deck.

The chance of the corp hitting your agendas with random accesses went down. If you are generally not wanting to draw agendas much in this deck, your average draw improved.

Of course, presumably these extra 5 cards are like the 41st-45th best possible non-agenda cards in your deck, so by adding them you might be weakening your draws.


Its a tradeoff and I dont think you can say one way is always better than another. In general 49 is probably better, but for any particular deck strategy/agenda composition that might not be true.
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Jethro Hendrickx
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Agenda choice is still pretty limited, in all my decks I've agendas I'm not too happy with. So adding 2 points (usually) here means another agenda I'm not very happy with. In practice I've not yet seen a deck where you could just 'upgrade' a 2 pointer to a 3 pointer. To this 'bad' agenda you then add 4 'less' useful cards... I think I'll just pass on that offer.
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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Minotower wrote:
Maths says 49 is better than 54. Subjective feeling may say otherwise.


Hummm... I don't know where your maths came from but for me the maths of 54/10 is pretty good when a Runner plays a Maker's Eye.
 
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Jethro Hendrickx
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Maths say that the smaller decks are more consistent. Say you'd have a 10 card deck, after 5 draws you're 100% sure on what you'd have seen. This percentage drops the more cards you have in the deck.

If you feel (subjectively) that your deck performs better with more cards, it's rather because your mix is better now than because of the extra cards themselves.
 
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Jacob Fryxelius
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Big decks are cool! Go against the 'norm' and beat it!

If there are cards in your deck that you really really REALLY want to see, a small deck is better, even with tutors (since you'll see the tutors more often).

Sometimes though, almost all yous cards work together in one way or Another and it doesn't really matter if you draw this or that.
Many people also live by the motto '3-of', i.e. to mostly have 3 or 0 of a card to make the deck more 'consistent'. Sure, it makes the deck more predictable and easier to read, both for you and your opponent. I like to have a mix of cards that all contribute, but in different ways, so I can have different tricks up my sleeve, especially if I can tutor for them, for example having a range of different icebreakers for Test Run. So far, the card pool is not really large enough to find a big variety of cards that work well together and you still need to have an overall strategy to support with the different cards.

It also isn't just a matter of finding the 'worst' cards and cut them. Cards are good in different situations. A deck has a balance of cards/functions and cutting cards changes that balance. If having more cards can give you the tools you need/want, then that might outweight the statistical disadvantage at seeing each card.

A more important aspect of this might be if you can afford the sleeves for a bigger deck. It's a lot more expensive with 54 sleeves than 49...
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Iain Galloway
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oDESGOSTO wrote:
Minotower wrote:
Maths says 49 is better than 54. Subjective feeling may say otherwise.


Hummm... I don't know where your maths came from but for me the maths of 54/10 is pretty good when a Runner plays a Maker's Eye.


On average, a random R&D access is worth about 2/5ths of an agenda point regardless of 49/20 or 54/22 cards/agenda points, and regardless of the mix of agenda values.

The only difference is variance; the distribution of agendas in a 54 card deck will be more random.

Similarly, fewer, larger agendas will make the distribution more random.
 
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