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Subject: Getting others to play as the Nazi party. rss

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John Wiser
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Posted this on the HoN kickstarter forum and would like your thoughts on this matter. Getting people to play as the US/English is not a problem but what can you do to get others to play as the Nazi party?

I really like what Dust Tactics did with their game in that they explained that the Nazi party was over thrown and was no more. Do you think that a game like this (HoN that is) should have taken similar steps? And do you think it will hurt sells because truth be told who wants to play as the Nazi party?

I do understand that there is a zombie set included and another set later down the road that seems to focus more on "monster" types than the Nazi party. I also know that there is a Dust expansion so that helps out a lot. However the meat of this game is between US/English/France/Canada/ the rest of the world vs the Nazi party.
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Miah Terry
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Anytime you play as the Germans in any WWII simulation (historically accurate one that is) you play as the Nazis. Ever play Axis and Allies, there's Nazis.

I for one find the whitewashing of history to be distastful, although most games and many other forms of media do it these days. At least Dust did have a creative solution to the precieved problem. Tannhauser too had a unique solution, they just refused to let WWI end therefore the Nazis never exsisted.

I hope that Devil Pig keeps the generally accurate feel to their game.
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Barry Doyle
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If someone's playing the Germans (Nazis or not), the player has to realize they're not adopting their politics, nor are they committing the unspeakable atrocities that were committed by the Nazis -- the players are simply fighting the battles of WWII with a board game, Hollywood-esque or not.

You can't have a WWII board game without those units being represented. It would be like fighting the battle of Arnhem without the 9th and 10th SS, and -- well -- then it wouldn't be A Bridge Too Far... or historically accurate. Even with the "character" this game has, it's still a board game about military history -- units, tactics and battles -- albeit with a bit of Hollywood flare on occasion.

I'd recommend to the players to focus on the military history and the entertainment value of HoN, rather than feeling like they're "representing" the Nazi party. There are times to reflect on the ugly parts of history, so we never forget, but I don't think playing a game of HoN should be one of those times.
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Jonathan James
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Also remember that the Nazis were a political party and only the SS were directly affiliated. Germany had a standing national army, navy and air corps that weren't strictly made up of all Nazi members. I believe that right now there is only one SS(Nazi) platoon available and everything else is just a regular unit from the Wehrmacht (Germany's national army).
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JR Wr
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Personally Id have no problem playing the Nazis.
But I also think women with Tattoos are hot, that gay people should be allowed to marry, and that Geeks can ride motorcycles and be mechanics.
So my thinking may be uncommon.

In my mind they are just another force to play, as Barry said.
You dont have to commit to committing the war crimes that some in Germany's forces did.
Beyond that, this is a war game loosely based on WWII, with nods to actual units.
So I dont see them shirking on including Nazis. Look at the SS group.
But I find that fitting and appreciate it more for the actual history side of it.
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Toco
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People play Darth Vader, he's bad too. Get a grip. It's a GAME. Not for real, you're not adopting the idea's of the personae or groups you're playing as if they were your own. You help the simulation within the GAME. (Like a previous poster also remarqued.) Enjoy games like this by switching sides. One time you play this faction, the other time you play that faction.
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Mattias B
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I actually prefer playing germans in any war game. Playing germany just fits my style, focusing on quality instead quantity. Also it gives me the opportunity to fight against the soviets which kinda feels good (I grew up during the late part of the cold war with the soviet threat to Sweden always present) in a childish sort of way!

But I'm also a pacifist and devout supporter of human rights. In no way do i support what the Nazi regime did to people during the war. Nor do i support what the allies did (Stalins cruelty or the nukes on japan). War is always hell, how does one measure suffering? Just play the game and have fun!
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clemens kremer
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As others have noted, playing at beeing someone does not affiliate you with that someone in any way. Playing at shooting up you opponent does not kill anybody (thankfully ;) ). This game in particular with its tongue in cheek, 'Hollywood Movie', approach should be non-problematic to most people...
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Leonardo Martino
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well think it the other way round... Some people may prefer to play the other side instead of the americans
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Jake Rose
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JohntheWiser wrote:

I really like what Dust Tactics did with their game in that they explained that the Nazi party was over thrown and was no more. Do you think that a game like this (HoN that is) should have taken similar steps? And do you think it will hurt sells because truth be told who wants to play as the Nazi party?


This is just silly. There are a bunch of WW2 games, board games, miniatures games, card games and so on. There have been a ton of WW2 movies and TV shows.

To think that sales would be hurt because they included some SS units is asinine. Someone plays the 'bad guys' in every war game. Should they not include Communist units when they eventually move the East Front because the Communist Party killed even more folks than the Nazis did?

You see, way back when, WW2 actually happened, and real people and real units fought and died across the globe. It affected millions of people. This game uses a great mix of 'Hollywood-ized' and historical units/unit types to bring the game to the table. Changing history to be politically correct in a misguided attempt to sell more copies would be silly, and I would bet a paycheck it would make no difference. The fact that German forces sell well for every WW2 game out there would indicate the market does not mind someone having to play the bad guys.
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Jacek Deimer
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Quote:
Posted this on the HoN kickstarter forum and would like your thoughts on this matter. Getting people to play as the US/English is not a problem but what can you do to get others to play as the Nazi party?

I really like what Dust Tactics did with their game in that they explained that the Nazi party was over thrown and was no more. Do you think that a game like this (HoN that is) should have taken similar steps? And do you think it will hurt sells because truth be told who wants to play as the Nazi party?


Whith this line of thinking no one would play games about Western Front of WWII? Who would like to play Nazi's or Soviets?

Pacific Front? Who would like to play Japan. (They were really not nice to US captives)

What about Korea, Vietnam, Balkans, Iraq?

There always will be this bad, wrong side of the conflict.

And it's fun when people mention DUST. It's a game where Germans do extremely cruel and inhuman experiments on people (living or dead) and animals to create superior soldiers. So if you play Dust germans do you think about doing such a thing in real life? I don't think so...
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John Wiser
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Just want to make it clear that I am backing this game on Kickstarter. I would like to know how others have handled the situation of helping others get over the uneasieness of play the Nazi party NOT about how you have no problem with it and then going on a rant.

I do not mean to be disrespectful to anyone nor do I wish for anyone to be disrespectful to me or any other poster. If you wish to post, please do so with respect. If your answer is, "I have no problem with it so no one else should.", while I agree with you to a point, it is not a solution that is going to get you very far (as I have tried this with my boss over my raise.)

I think I am best to start with not calling the Germans the Nazi party. As we all know not everyone in the German army had the same views as the Nazi party. Any other helpful suggestions?
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Jake Rose
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Let your opponent play the Allies...

After a few times of that say "okay, lets switch sides and see how we do on that same scenario'.

But again, if they are playing a WW2 game in the first place, unless they prefer to play US against Brits, I suspect it isn't an issue.
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Jacek Deimer
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@John

First of all I don't think that you or anyone was disprespectull to you or other posters. I think that most of negative comments where about idea of changing the historical background of Heroes of Normandie.

Now, going back to topic of convincing someone to play Germans:

1. You can play them yourself and leave good boys for other players.

2. You can explain it's just a game about tactical combat, with various sides represented. You can say it's not about ideologies, but about 2 field commanders having a battle to fight. Just 2 small cogs that are part of much bigger machines, without influence on what they are ordered to do.

3. You can point that not all Germans where bad people or Nazi. Many people were forced to join SS in later years of war. Soldier are soldiers, they have to obey order. I believe that many soldiers from both Allies nad Axis would prefer to stay home instead of taking part in a war, if they had a choice.

4. If it doesn't work, you can always rotate who plays who, this is fair solution.
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JR Wr
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Tell em yo look at it from this point of view.

U.S. isn't always the good guys.
We have done more than our fair share of war crimes.
Vietnam anyone?

Tell em its war. All sides are equally evil.
I mean, you are killing your fellow man.

The Germans killed many yes. In horrible ways, yes.
So did the U.S.

That's one way to loom at it.
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Luis Fernandez
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Here in my country everybody wants to play NAZI always in all games

for example in Axis & Allies Miniatures i remember tournaments were usually among nazis! i did played americans (since i do love nazis too) and won many touraments (since american side was cheesy)

When playing Axis & Allies we struggle to be germany and the axis.

in Flames of War: The World War II Miniatures Gameagain... people rather make a SS or any german regiment than be american, some "hipsters" play russian, i opted to run over americans. (since i want to make a panzer lehr division)

Also the same happens in dust warfare/tactics...

so i have to send some of my friend there to play with you!
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Jake Rose
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ropya wrote:
Tell em its war. All sides are equally evil.
I mean, you are killing your fellow man.



That's one way to loom at it.


All sides are NOT equally evil.
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JR Wr
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jakecarol wrote:
ropya wrote:
Tell em its war. All sides are equally evil.
I mean, you are killing your fellow man.



That's one way to loom at it.


All sides are NOT equally evil.


Perhaps not at the same time.
But the U.S. has done more than its share of evil things over the years.

Although im sure this will fall under a political type conversation and I do not wish to offend anyone with my views of history.
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Scott Hill
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ropya wrote:
the U.S. has done more than its share of evil things over the years.


The British, and the French, too.

(and I wouldn't say "more than" - we've all done our share at times)
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Rudy Van den Broecke
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War is war, it's never pretty and never clean.

And history is always written by the winners, so the "losers" are not bad but very bad and the "winners" are good. That's how the "winners" get away with almost everything.

It goes for all times, every war and all sides. And probably always will.


Does that change anything to this game?

No, just keep your distance and enjoy this beautifull game, cause that is what it is. A game.


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JR Wr
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Aye, every story has 3 sides.
His, Theirs, and the truth.
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Jake Rose
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vdbmalmsteen wrote:
War is war, it's never pretty and never clean.

And history is always written by the winners, so the "losers" are not bad but very bad and the "winners" are good. That's how the "winners" get away with almost everything.






Pretty sure the winners of WW2 were not cramming civilians into ovens. Not all sides are equally evil, regardless of who wrote the history...
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Rudy Van den Broecke
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True, it just gets a little extra push
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Dino
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jakecarol wrote:
vdbmalmsteen wrote:
War is war, it's never pretty and never clean.

And history is always written by the winners, so the "losers" are not bad but very bad and the "winners" are good. That's how the "winners" get away with almost everything.



Pretty sure the winners of WW2 were not cramming civilians into ovens. Not all sides are equally evil, regardless of who wrote the history...


Right, they were cramming them into gulags. Or nuking them.
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Rudy Van den Broecke
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YouR_DooM wrote:
jakecarol wrote:
vdbmalmsteen wrote:
War is war, it's never pretty and never clean.

And history is always written by the winners, so the "losers" are not bad but very bad and the "winners" are good. That's how the "winners" get away with almost everything.



Pretty sure the winners of WW2 were not cramming civilians into ovens. Not all sides are equally evil, regardless of who wrote the history...


Right, they were cramming them into gulags. Or nuking them.


This the "They almost get away with everything part". People always remember the jews but forget Japan.

I consider both to be as bad
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