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Subject: Shuffling between games! rss

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Gary Kenyon
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I've found that I don't shuffle very much between games, which I think is becoming an issue. My Agendas start coming out in 3's and 4's, my Ice is all bunched up and my trashed economy from the previous game all come out together... How much/well do you shuffle between games? As the Corp I feel like I need to do a proper shuffle after every match, just because I end up with at least 5 agendas together(more than half) when I begin my small shuffles.

As the runner I don't find this is too much of a problem, especially as I'm more than happy to run without any breakers down... so drawing the right cards isn't at all a problem!
 
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Steven Tu
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chiefyk wrote:
I've found that I don't shuffle very much between games, which I think is becoming an issue. My Agendas start coming out in 3's and 4's, my Ice is all bunched up and my trashed economy from the previous game all come out together... How much/well do you shuffle between games? As the Corp I feel like I need to do a proper shuffle after every match, just because I end up with at least 5 agendas together(more than half) when I begin my small shuffles.

As the runner I don't find this is too much of a problem, especially as I'm more than happy to run without any breakers down... so drawing the right cards isn't at all a problem!


Well, of course you need to shuffle between games, unless you're super good at putting cards back into your deck in a randomised state.

What's your question?
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Lucas Townsend
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I believe this is cheating. On multiple levels.
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Gary Kenyon
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Tuism wrote:
chiefyk wrote:
I've found that I don't shuffle very much between games, which I think is becoming an issue. My Agendas start coming out in 3's and 4's, my Ice is all bunched up and my trashed economy from the previous game all come out together... How much/well do you shuffle between games? As the Corp I feel like I need to do a proper shuffle after every match, just because I end up with at least 5 agendas together(more than half) when I begin my small shuffles.

As the runner I don't find this is too much of a problem, especially as I'm more than happy to run without any breakers down... so drawing the right cards isn't at all a problem!


Well, of course you need to shuffle between games, unless you're super good at putting cards back into your deck in a randomised state.

What's your question?

I'm just asking how much people shuffle between games? I find that if I shuffle loads before, give them a proper thorough shuffle, then my deck seems to work a lot better... after playing 2-3 games though I don't shuffle as thoroughly and my R&D starts drawing horrifically until I give it another proper shuffle.

Has anyone else found this to be a problem during extended play sessions? (was the question )
 
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Martin Presley
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I do a pile shuffle, then seven weave shuffles, intermixed with overhand shuffling, between each game. I do this to ensure a thorough, complete randomization between every game. In addition I'll do a few more shuffles when setting up, as a courtesy to demonstrate I'm not using a stacked deck.
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Milan Mašát
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hoobajoo wrote:
I do a pile shuffle, then seven weave shuffles, intermixed with overhand shuffling, between each game. I do this to ensure a thorough, complete randomization between every game. In addition I'll do a few more shuffles when setting up, as a courtesy to demonstrate I'm not using a stacked deck.

I want to teach a mystique technique of "seven weave shuffles" is it based on seven samurai?
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MatthiasC
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Vodnyk wrote:

I want to teach a mystique technique of "seven weave shuffles" is it based on seven samurai?


It is a variant of the Faro shuffle. Search Youtube for videos on either "Weave Shuffle" or "Faro Shuffle".
 
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João Almeida
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Here's what I do between games and when I mulligan:
- Put all cards used + my hand at the bottom of the deck
- Riffle shuffle once
- Pile shuffle
- Riffle shuffle once
- Weave shuffle 10-15 times
- Pile shuffle again
- Riffle shuffle three times
- Ask my opponent to shuffle/cut my deck
 
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Eric Boivin
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Hraklea wrote:
Here's what I do between games and when I mulligan:
- Put all cards used + my hand at the bottom of the deck
- Riffle shuffle once
- Pile shuffle
- Riffle shuffle once
- Weave shuffle 10-15 times
- Pile shuffle again
- Riffle shuffle three times
- Ask my opponent to shuffle/cut my deck


Hmm, that must take a while to do.

The tournaments I've participated had aggressive time limits and since the timeout rules are so brutal, I've decided to go with a simpler shuffle, mixing 1 pile and some weave shuffle.
 
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João Almeida
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milhouse46 wrote:
Hmm, that must take a while to do.

The tournaments I've participated had aggressive time limits and since the timeout rules are so brutal, I've decided to go with a simpler shuffle, mixing 1 pile and some weave shuffle.


It takes something like 1 minute and a half, with practice (if you shuffle better than me, you can do it faster, I'm not that good, actually).

I'm used to the "3 minutes to shuffle" rule from MtG. I think you can just put the cards at the bottom, riffle, pile, riffle thrice in Netrunner tournaments.
 
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Ben Benjamin

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Keep in mind that a perfectly randomized deck is not nessisarily an evenly distributed deck. You will hit clumps, sometimes big ones, of agendas even after shuffling sufficiently. That's just how randomization works.

But yeah, do a pile shuffle and several other suffles of your choice. Pile shuffles will get rid of clumps of cards put together from previous play sessions, and the remaining shuffles will randomize your deck sufficiently enough.
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- Saturnine -
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The pile "shuffle" (I don't consider it a shuffle) is a ccg player convention that still mystifies me. Either you know or have an idea about the order of cards in your deck, in which case the pile shuffle is simply stacking the cards (which is cheating, and indeed, it's easy to stack your deck with a pile "shuffle"), or your deck is already randomized, at which point the pile "shuffle" is just a laborious way of re-ordering your cards that is no more likely to break up clumps than it is to create new ones. A combination of a number of riffle/weave shuffles interspersed with triple cuts to the deck is all you need to sufficiently randomize a deck of cards, and can be done in a very speedy fashion with just a bit of practice.
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Ben Benjamin

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Saturnine wrote:
The pile "shuffle" (I don't consider it a shuffle) is a ccg player convention that still mystifies me. Either you know or have an idea about the order of cards in your deck, in which case the pile shuffle is simply stacking the cards (which is cheating, and indeed, it's easy to stack your deck with a pile "shuffle"), or your deck is already randomized, at which point the pile "shuffle" is just a laborious way of re-ordering your cards that is no more likely to break up clumps than it is to create new ones. A combination of a number of riffle/weave shuffles interspersed with triple cuts to the deck is all you need to sufficiently randomize a deck of cards, and can be done in a very speedy fashion with just a bit of practice.


I'm pretty sure it happens because of sleeves. I think it's just a fool proof way to make sure every card is next to a different cards than what it was next to before, something that you can't always do with a riffle or weave shuffle, espessially with sleeves on. Think of it as a slow motion shuffle. Also note that if you are good enough, other kinds of shuffles aren't exactly random either. For example, if you do 8 perfect riffle shuffles with a pack of normal playing cards it will return to the exact same state it was before.

So yeah, pile shuffles can be used to cheat, but they are also a totally legit form of randomization, the same as any other shuffle. It just takes a lot less dexterous skill to cheat with. On the flip side it's also a lot easier for the opponent to see it happening. Basically, if you think your opponent might be doing something shady with any kind of shuffle, or you simply aren't satified with the level of randomization, either call a judge or just give it a good shuffle when they pass it to you to cut. It's totally your right to do so in tournamnet play, so take advantage of it.

Edit: I agree that I wouldn't want someone to just pile shuffle their deck because I don't know how much knowedgle they have of their deck order before hand. However, if they handed it to me and asked me to pile shuffle it for them because they didn't want to damage their cards or sleeves, I would be fine with that.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Saturnine wrote:
The pile "shuffle" (I don't consider it a shuffle) is a ccg player convention that still mystifies me.


Agreed. 90% of the time, it is simply a re-ordering of their deck and a non-Shuffle.

Here'd what I do:

After a game, cards are in three to five groups: deck, discard pile, hand, in play area, etc. I shuffle these into each other based on a rough guesstimate of size until all cards are in my deck. Then I weave or riffle shuffle them seven times. Done.
 
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Pavlos Pavlopoulos
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Saturnine wrote:
The pile "shuffle" (I don't consider it a shuffle) is a ccg player convention that still mystifies me. Either you know or have an idea about the order of cards in your deck, in which case the pile shuffle is simply stacking the cards (which is cheating, and indeed, it's easy to stack your deck with a pile "shuffle"), or your deck is already randomized, at which point the pile "shuffle" is just a laborious way of re-ordering your cards that is no more likely to break up clumps than it is to create new ones. A combination of a number of riffle/weave shuffles interspersed with triple cuts to the deck is all you need to sufficiently randomize a deck of cards, and can be done in a very speedy fashion with just a bit of practice.


Genuine question, since I am no expert: doesn't a pile shuffle help in breaking up clumps that are typically created when you pick up cards at the end of the game? You'll do something like pick up all scored agendas, swipe all the ICE and grab all the archives. So I typically start with a pile shuffle, then weave a lot (I suck at riffling and am very concerned I'll damage my cards) and end with a cut before offering to the opponent for a cut.

Also, if I finish before the time limit I like shuffling while chatting and waiting for the round to end. It does help a lot during tournaments.
 
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Jeff Gum
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Saturnine wrote:
The pile "shuffle" (I don't consider it a shuffle) is a ccg player convention that still mystifies me. Either you know or have an idea about the order of cards in your deck, in which case the pile shuffle is simply stacking the cards (which is cheating, and indeed, it's easy to stack your deck with a pile "shuffle"), or your deck is already randomized, at which point the pile "shuffle" is just a laborious way of re-ordering your cards that is no more likely to break up clumps than it is to create new ones. A combination of a number of riffle/weave shuffles interspersed with triple cuts to the deck is all you need to sufficiently randomize a deck of cards, and can be done in a very speedy fashion with just a bit of practice.


While I agree that finishing your shuffling ritual with a pile is suspect, starting out with one in order to be certain your lands/agendas/what have you is dispersed, then following it up with a couple more shuffles to also ensure randomization is fine. Even if it's just a psychological thing, it helps knowing that you split up those cards, even though shuffling properly probably did that anyway.
 
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Justin
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I pile (4) then riffle.
 
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João Almeida
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About pile shuffling, keep in mind that:
a) ordinary people (like me) can't riffle perfectly, one of my hands is more skilled than the other, so it is pretty much impossible for me to riffle as theory says I should (exactly 50% chance for each hand, exactly 50% of the deck at each hand);
b) our statistics knowledge is limited about combinations of shuffling techniques, if you're alternating between weave, riffle and cut, you can't be sure when your deck is truly randomized too.

So, in the end, card gamers have to trust their guts about how to shuffle. Pile shuffling is a technique that can be done accurately, it doesn't take too long if you have practice, and it has been working for me until now.
 
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Mike Aubuchon
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Part of the reason I pile shuffle is to count my cards to make sure that I don't wind up inadvertently presenting an illegal deck. Cards get misplaced (agendas in particular), cards get dropped... I just feel safer having done it.
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General Norris
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Ugh, riffle shuffle turns the cards into crap. I don't like bending, thank you
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Jarrett Dunn
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I use the standard Hoyle rules of 7 rifle shuffles to properly randomize the deck (faro, dovetail, or weave shuffles work the same, and I do those instead if the cards are sleeved as I can actually do those easier with sleeved cards).

http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathtrek_10_16_00.html

And if you just overhand shuffle, it takes 2500 of those to randomize the deck.

http://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20002.4-6.shtml
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João Almeida
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General_Norris wrote:
Ugh, riffle shuffle turns the cards into crap. I don't like bending, thank you


It doesn't damage your cards if done correctly.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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kordan11 wrote:
Genuine question, since I am no expert: doesn't a pile shuffle help in breaking up clumps that are typically created when you pick up cards at the end of the game?


Yes, it does. You know what else does? Actually shuffling the deck. Pile Shuffles would have no noticeable affect whatsoever if the player then performed a sufficient number of riffle/weave shuffles. Pile Shuffles only matter if you are not shuffling your deck enough. Period.
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Guido Gloor
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I pile shuffle occasionally, to break up cards that might stick together in 2s and 3s for some reason.

Other than that, 5-10 riffle shuffles between games.

Yes, not shuffling between games is definitely a mystifying practice.
 
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João Almeida
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etherial wrote:
Pile Shuffles only matter if you are not shuffling your deck enough. Period.


I agree: shuffling only makes sense if your deck is not shuffled.
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