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Subject: So then this happened... rss

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http://news.yahoo.com/2nd-child-pa-couple-dies-only-praying-...

Maybe they just didn't pray hard enough?
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No, they prayed enough. It was all God's plan.
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It's a well known fact that God hates babies.
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spoon wrote:
It's a well known fact that God hates babies.


That's certainly true.
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Dispaminite wrote:

Maybe they just didn't pray hard enough?

jmilum wrote:
No, they prayed enough. It was all God's plan.


There's a weird sort of equivocation going on here. These guys are obviously a very small minority among Christians. They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things. But ridiculing prayer and God's sovereignty in general seems out of line here. It's like ridiculing the concept of modern medicine based on one case of malpractice.
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happyjosiah wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:

Maybe they just didn't pray hard enough?

jmilum wrote:
No, they prayed enough. It was all God's plan.


There's a weird sort of equivocation going on here. These guys are obviously a very small minority among Christians. They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things. But ridiculing prayer and God's sovereignty in general seems out of line here. It's like ridiculing the concept of modern medicine based on one case of malpractice.


This is the second time their kid died when they prayed. The first time you could call it coincidence. The second time it's starting to become a pattern. God hates these people, or they're not praying hard enough. Worry not though, they have 7 other kids. Plenty of time to test this.
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happyjosiah wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:

Maybe they just didn't pray hard enough?

jmilum wrote:
No, they prayed enough. It was all God's plan.


There's a weird sort of equivocation going on here. These guys are obviously a very small minority among Christians. They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things. But ridiculing prayer and God's sovereignty in general seems out of line here. It's like ridiculing the concept of modern medicine based on one case of malpractice.

Fortunately, most Christians know that God helps those who help themselves—which is a tacit acknowledgment that God can't be cajoled into bending laws of nature.
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happyjosiah wrote:
They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things.


You're a nice guy and I hate to pick on you, but this sentence is too convenient. From their point of view, this sentence applies to you not them. From the nonbelievers point of view this sentence applies to you AND them. Who is wrong? They have faith, you have faith, and we are told you can't argue with faith as it is a personal experience that has to be experienced to understand. Why is their faith misguided and yours true?
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happyjosiah wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:

Maybe they just didn't pray hard enough?

jmilum wrote:
No, they prayed enough. It was all God's plan.


There's a weird sort of equivocation going on here. These guys are obviously a very small minority among Christians. They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things. But ridiculing prayer and God's sovereignty in general seems out of line here. It's like ridiculing the concept of modern medicine based on one case of malpractice.
Funny, they'd say the same about your beliefs, and have just as much to back it up as you do. It really just boils down to God being a baby-hating Monster deaf to the pleas of his followers.
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TheChin! wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things.


You're a nice guy and I hate to pick on you, but this sentence is too convenient. From their point of view, this sentence applies to you not them. From the nonbelievers point of view this sentence applies to you AND them. Who is wrong? They have faith, you have faith, and we are told you can't argue with faith as it is a personal experience that has to be experienced to understand. Why is their faith misguided and yours true?


That sentence probably should have been parenthetical. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't agree with what they are doing at all. It was tangential to the point I was trying to make, which was that it is not fair to ridicule entire systems based on misuse by a very small minority.
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Well, they only were following the instructions:

“The church's website has a sermon titled "Healing — From God or Medicine?" that quotes Bible verses purportedly forbidding Christians from visiting doctors or taking medicine.
"It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills; and it is real faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing," says the message, from last May.”

James 5:14

New International Version (NIV)
14- Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.
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happyjosiah wrote:
They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things.

Should Christians be free to interpret the Bible as they see fit? Why is one interpretation wrong and another right? There are many different denomination with many different views.

This is the kind of thing that I find very squishy. We have people that want a very 'liberal' Religious exemption from Government for all kinds of laws and restrictions. Should parents be allowed to withhold lifesaving care from their kids based on their religious views? Probably not since that would infringe on the kids' rights. But that is an instance of the State stepping (OH! No!). But what if the care is not lifesaving, then the question becomes hard, right?

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happyjosiah wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:

Maybe they just didn't pray hard enough?

jmilum wrote:
No, they prayed enough. It was all God's plan.


There's a weird sort of equivocation going on here. These guys are obviously a very small minority among Christians. They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things. But ridiculing prayer and God's sovereignty in general seems out of line here. It's like ridiculing the concept of modern medicine based on one case of malpractice.


If you follow the Calvinist concept of God's sovereignty to its logical conclusion, then their misunderstanding and the foolish things they did were exactly what God chose them to be.
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The primary purpose of prayer is to provide emotional comfort for those engaging in prayer.


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My faith and religion lives by one rule.. "Do no harm"

Anything else, and it's not my faith and religion. I'm not quite sure what your deity tells you.

These whack jobs above did harm, then I have no clue what religion they follow.
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This is what I love about the Devil, I can make up any necessary story line to explain away something.

In the olden days when people or the ones they loved got hurt or sick, they prayed to God for guidance, strength and special dispensation. They went to God's chosen representatives for supernatural healing. It was a great way to keep God in every ones everyday life in a very intimate way. Satan looked at this relationship and thought to him/her/itself "OK, this has got to stop." So, using his powers over forbidden knowledge he fed the human race medical science. Now people started to move away from God and seek help from each other instead of God, placing him further away from their hearts. Satan looked at his work and laughed at his genius. He was especially tickled at the irony when doctors chose twin entwined serpents as their symbol.
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Oh dear, so many different things to address. I'll try.

Throxx wrote:
Well, they only were following the instructions:
James 5:14
New International Version (NIV)
14- Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.


I believe this also. The problem is with thinking that is the ONLY thing to be done. Of course you should pray. But that doesn't mean you ignore other means of healing God has also provided, such as medicine. In fact, Luke (of the Gospel of Luke) was himself a doctor.

Chad_Ellis wrote:

If you follow the Calvinist concept of God's sovereignty to its logical conclusion, then their misunderstanding and the foolish things they did were exactly what God chose them to be.


That's true from a cosmic perspective, but not from a human one.

jmilum wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
They also have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible that is leading them to do very foolish things.

Should Christians be free to interpret the Bible as they see fit? Why is one interpretation wrong and another right? There are many different denomination with many different views.

This is the kind of thing that I find very squishy. We have people that want a very 'liberal' Religious exemption from Government for all kinds of laws and restrictions. Should parents be allowed to withhold lifesaving care from their kids based on their religious views? Probably not since that would infringe on the kids' rights. But that is an instance of the State stepping (OH! No!). But what if the care is not lifesaving, then the question becomes hard, right?


I'm not sure I quite understand your first question. Should they be free legally to hold various interpretations? Of course, that's just freedom of religion. This of course does not exempt them from legal consequences in this case. Should the be free morally? Well, no. The reason "one interpretation is wrong and another is right" is because there WAS an original intention by the author. We don't always agree on what that might be, but that also doesn't mean there IS no answer.

I really don't have a problem with the government stepping in for cases like this. As you said, a life-saving measure should overrule any particular religious belief.

fightcitymayor wrote:
The primary purpose of prayer is to provide emotional comfort for those engaging in prayer.


That's one of them, sure, but it's not primary. Then again, "getting stuff from God" isn't primary either. But I've already shared my views on prayer:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/855979/some-thoughts-on-...
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happyjosiah wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:

If you follow the Calvinist concept of God's sovereignty to its logical conclusion, then their misunderstanding and the foolish things they did were exactly what God chose them to be.


That's true from a cosmic perspective, but not from a human one.


What does that even mean?

Is it not the case, according to Calvinism, that this couple believed what they believed and did what they did entirely because that's what God chose for them to believe and do?
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How many people does scripture tells us about that Jesus healed that could have gone to the local doctor and gotten healing instead?
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Jythier wrote:
How many people does scripture tells us about that Jesus healed that could have gone to the local doctor and gotten healing instead?


How far from pray was medicine back in Jesus's day?
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Jythier wrote:
How many people does scripture tells us about that Jesus healed that could have gone to the local doctor and gotten healing instead?
Jesus was way too busy for that bullshit back in biblical times. Now that he is up in heaven basking in his own Glory, he has a lot more time for personal interventions. I know this is true because the Christian God is a personal God, and that's what he told me when I prayed about it.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:

If you follow the Calvinist concept of God's sovereignty to its logical conclusion, then their misunderstanding and the foolish things they did were exactly what God chose them to be.


That's true from a cosmic perspective, but not from a human one.


What does that even mean?


It means that if their baby had been Galactus, it would have lived.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:

If you follow the Calvinist concept of God's sovereignty to its logical conclusion, then their misunderstanding and the foolish things they did were exactly what God chose them to be.


That's true from a cosmic perspective, but not from a human one.


What does that even mean?

Is it not the case, according to Calvinism, that this couple believed what they believed and did what they did entirely because that's what God chose for them to believe and do?


Do we have to turn every thread about Christianity into one about Calvinism? I know it's a belief that really bothers you, but I don't see the purpose of, hypothetically, quoting every post I've ever made (in RSP and otherwise) and saying "you only think that because God ordained it!" Which you COULD do, admittedly. But how does that further this discussion?

To try to answer briefly, it's not really all that different from what your yourself say in this thread:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/848836/musings-on-free-will-...

From your conclusion there:
Quote:
I think the whole concept of free will is something we should consider tossing in the garbage. Most likely we don't have it, and I'm not even sure that it's a coherent concept.


Despite believing that in a "cosmic sense", I assume you still don't have a problem making choices and using the language of choice in your everyday life. Me neither. Calvinism is a concept of how God operates behind the scenes and has very little to do with how we live our lives.
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happyjosiah wrote:
It's like ridiculing the concept of modern medicine based on one case of malpractice.


Bet that's exactly what they did...
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happyjosiah wrote:
Do we have to turn every thread about Christianity into one about Calvinism? I know it's a belief that really bothers you, but I don't see the purpose of, hypothetically, quoting every post I've ever made (in RSP and otherwise) and saying "you only think that because God ordained it!" Which you COULD do, admittedly. But how does that further this discussion?


I had no intention of making this about Calvinism, but when you say that a couple has foolish beliefs and weren't doing what God actually instructs them to do I think that's just incredibly strange since you believe that God caused them not to do what he instructed.

In short, it's not about why you believe what you believe but whether what you believe makes any sense at all. (The fact that you can say with a straight face that people who were doing what God caused them to do weren't doing what God instructed them to do suggests that maybe it doesn't.)

Quote:
Despite believing that in a "cosmic sense", I assume you still don't have a problem making choices and using the language of choice in your everyday life. Me neither. Calvinism is a concept of how God operates behind the scenes and has very little to do with how we live our lives.


Only because Calvinists either don't really believe their nonsense or else don't follow it through to its logical conclusion. It's one thing to doubt that our personal narrative (including how we make choices) is totally accurate and quite another to believe that everything we do or think is 100% predetermined.
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