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Android: Netrunner» Forums » General

Subject: Advantage? rss

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Unholy Emerald
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With this being an asymmetric game, I wonder does either side have an advantage? With tournaments being held and so many people playing I wonder if there are any stats as to if any side wins more often or if it's an even 50/50 split.
 
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Steven Tu
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There are already some great discussions about this:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/909115/thoughts-on-tempo

It's a tad out of date but the general sentiment remains about the same.
 
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Unholy Emerald
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Oh that thread is awesome. Thank you.
 
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Michele Lupo
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My personal feelings and experience say that at low-level play the corp is slightly advantaged while at higher levels the runner has a small edge. Maybe this is because it's generally easier playing and deckbuilding as runner than as corp. Highest level corp mastery is hard to attain.
 
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B C Z
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Reston
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Wolf88 wrote:
My personal feelings and experience say that at low-level play the corp is slightly advantaged while at higher levels the runner has a small edge. Maybe this is because it's generally easier playing and deckbuilding as runner than as corp. Highest level corp mastery is hard to attain.


For every person I hear who has a hard time building/playing corp decks, I hear an equal number of players who have a hard time building/playing runner decks.

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Simon Gunkel
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Data Dealer 2 will deal with this in more detail, but I´ve argued that Corp has a disadvantage in tournament play, where it pays to play it conservatively and rather lose with 5 AP than take a chance at winning or losing with 2 AP.

 
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Andrew Bartosh

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My general feelings are starting to swing towards the fact that the Corp is disadvantaged (more vulnerable to bad luck, silver bullets, etc) and statistics are looking that direction as well.

It isn't comprehensive/decisive (especially as the OCTGN tourny was out of date), but there was a trend towards a 60/40 split favoring Runner for actually winning games, which is somewhat indicative.

The swing gets a bit worse with the top players, which does support the belief that's been going around that it is skill level dependent: players more familiar with the game will win more with Runner, players less familiar with Corp.

THIS IS NOT DECISIVE again, and could well be the result of a number of other factors (match-ups, game balance at that point, etc), but it is food for thought.
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Simon Gunkel
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AndrewRogue wrote:
My general feelings are starting to swing towards the fact that the Corp is disadvantaged (more vulnerable to bad luck, silver bullets, etc) and statistics are looking that direction as well.


While my upload is going on, let me just say: Nope. There´s been a distinctive trend towards equality during the Cycle. There´s one Runner that has maintained an edge throughout (Gabe). But there are some interesting statistical effects here. One is the "New Identity Crisis", every new Identity has started losing a lot of games. There´s a new playstyle to figure out and you´re going to learn hard lessons. This has happened twice to runners so far, but 3 times to the corp side. That´s something skewing the results somewhat (and since there are 4 corp factions and 3 runner faction will continue to do so). But apart from NBN all core identities on the core side have mostly been doing rather well and I suspect Humanities Shadow will push NBN.

AndrewRogue wrote:
It isn't comprehensive/decisive (especially as the OCTGN tourny was out of date), but there was a trend towards a 60/40 split favoring Runner for actually winning games, which is somewhat indicative.


It´s nowhere near that in normal play and at times there´s even a corp advantage. As noted above, tournaments are a different setting which affect Corp playstyle more than Runner playstyle - an effect that is increased because people perceive the corp as weaker, leading to even safer plays.

AndrewRogue wrote:
The swing gets a bit worse with the top players, which does support the belief that's been going around that it is skill level dependent: players more familiar with the game will win more with Runner, players less familiar with Corp.


This would also support the view I hold, namely that Corp play in a tournament is less about winning the game than winning the match. Both are somewhat different and since the top players are the ones that win matches, they adjust their corp play in just that way. Hence my prediction that we will see different levels of Corp win from the Top players in the league games, where it´s not match based.
 
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Andrew Bartosh

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Simon: Definitely interested in seeing expanded numbers.
 
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Simon Gunkel
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DD2 is up on Youtube and pending approval here. I´ll organize the raw timelines this weekend and deposit them somewhere as a csv.
 
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Marcus Aurelius
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It is true that the runner has the advantage at the moment, but it is not considerable. The reason why good players insist on runner having a huge advantage, I feel, is that they often play a lot of games between each other, and multiple times with the same deck, thus giving more victories to the runner. The game is balanced around the fact that you don't know the contents of the opponent's deck, so only the first game is a leveled playing field. For all the consecutive games you play, the runner has the advantage because he doesn't depend on surprise and obfuscation nearly as much as the corporation.

This is one additional reason why elimination rounds don't work well for competitive Netrunner. In case that your deck got scouted by playing someone's friend for example, you are at a considerable disadvantage if your opponent gets to pick the runner.
 
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Brian B
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Malvoli0 wrote:
It is true that the runner has the advantage at the moment, but it is not considerable. The reason why good players insist on runner having a huge advantage, I feel, is that they often play a lot of games between each other, and multiple times with the same deck, thus giving more victories to the runner. The game is balanced around the fact that you don't know the contents of the opponent's deck, so only the first game is a leveled playing field. For all the consecutive games you play, the runner has the advantage because he doesn't depend on surprise and obfuscation nearly as much as the corporation.

This is one additional reason why elimination rounds don't work well for competitive Netrunner. In case that your deck got scouted by playing someone's friend for example, you are at a considerable disadvantage if your opponent gets to pick the runner.


I agree entirely with the game being designed around a "I will play my corp deck once vs you ever. You will then play your corp deck vs me once ever." mentality and I think this is slightly problematic, let alone if you are ever "scouted" in a tournament or tournament players become well known.

Now don't construe this as a negative post, I like playing netrunner(namely as runner in my current meta), its simply things to consider when playing the game. It also doesn't mean corp can't win, just that its simply harder.

First its problematic as you will play with the same decks vs the same people and it simply hurts the corp. The corp and runner should be equal if they have never played, but after the first play the runner has a considerably higher chance of winning simply by removing the 1 element the corp has going for them "surprise". This is also affected by the internet, where a runner can read what cards are in a variety of corp decks and whats currently popular(ex. NBN Never Advance) and have a good idea what to expect when they play that corp. The runner cares about what cards are in the corp deck as that affects how they run. The corp doesn't care whats in the runners decks(yes this isn't entirely true as knowing if your shaper deck has inside job will change how the corp plays or makers eye for a crim deck) as they are generally "the same" with the faction defining the difference. You know if you play crim they will have inside job, FAO, emergency shutdown etc. Deck sharing or popularity inherently hurts the corp as its lowering their one strength.

The obvious imbalance after the first play aside I think the following is true in netrunner:

The corp has almost everything against it in this game besides surprise.
-The runner has the better economy early game, late game, and in some cases even mid game.

-The runner has inherently more options in deck building and, with current releases, many more options as each runner is beginning to gain the options the others had at an accelerated rate compared to the corps.

-The runner can draw and mulligan without a care in the world...the corp can draw, get a bad hand they would love to mulligan, but end up keeping it because they might get a worse hand if they mulligan.

-Unlucky draws hurt the corp more then the runner who wants everything in their deck.

-Luck also means the corp can lose the game in 1 run(0-7), whereas the runner knows the corp must of scored at least 2 agendas to win.

-The corp is entirely reliant on needing specific cards(namely ICE) at a specific time and if they don't draw that card it can mean the game, while for the runner its at worse a scored agenda(more commonly they simply can't run HQ/R&D due to not having the breaker to get by the ICE). Corps try and mitigate this issue with adding more ICE into decks, but this will make your deck weaker as you can saturate with ICE.

-Traces are inherently runner favored(ignoring link) due to the corp being forced to spend first and the runner choosing to meet it afterwards.

-Link is simply to good vs traces. Traces are a defining subroutine in the game, but link negates them. As more trace ICE is added and link becomes even more common it creates a scenario where the base trace must constantly be made higher and higher with newer releases and the trace on old releases simply gets worse.

-The runner dictates the flow of the game easier then the corp. The runner can choose to never run and nothing will hurt them besides the corp scoring agendas, meanwhile the corp must ALWAYS consider the runner in the game. An obvious example is Noise mill decks that simply play as if the corp isn't there until they want to play with the corp.

-Along the same note the runner dictates the corps economy, the corp almost never dictates the runners economy. The exception being cards like Restructured Data Pool getting scored early and those are few and require a lot of luck(drawing it at the right time for starts).


There may be more things and I didn't say any of the corps advantages besides surprise(are there any?), but this is getting to long and its clearly biased by me liking the old corp play style more.
 
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