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Subject: Clarification on some of the rules rss

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Jin TS
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Hi,

I have played a session of City expansion without other expansion and no alternate ending, so whoever enter the CoC first wins. Initially i plan to post a session report and post all my questions there but due to my busy work schedule, i decided to post a rule question and follow by my session report later, because we plan to play another round of Talisman on this coming Friday night.

1. If the Dragon Hunter gets the Flail, so he rolls three dice for attacks and does it mean that when any of the two dice score the same result (snake eyes), the character is automatically defeated?

2. What happen if the Bounty Hunter fights the Amazon and it is a tie? Do they follow Amazon's ability by battling out another fresh round, or going by the Bounty Hunter's ability whereby he wins the battle whenever it's a tie?

3. What happens when Reaper enters the City in terms of movement? Does it follow the one-way street rule or it may move in any direction? Can the Reaper move into a shop just like a character (even though it doesn't use up all its movement from dice roll) and force a character to roll on Reaper's chart? (i don't really mind this way but it will make the Reaper extremely deadly in the City...)

4. When the Warrior has two Flails which he is entitle to use, it means he rolls four dice during battle?!

5. When Bounty Hunter has a Fullplate armor, he practically has only 25% of losing, he wins when it is a win or tie, hope we get this right.

Following are some of the older rules where i have forgotten which i need some clarification (my apology for not playing Talisman for too long)

6. Many characters have more than one abilities. Does all the abilities triggers when the situation occurs? Example, Sorceress may Beguile and steal followers from other characters, can she use both abilities when she land on a character, or choose only one? I remember choosing one only as she was not over powered in any ways. If that's the case, character only choose one ability to activate each time, some other characters also become an issue, such as Sprite, she replenishes one spell whenever she cast her last spell and when she enter a wood or forest she may evade monsters/characters. What if she land on a wood space and immediately cast her last spells?

7. Im sorry if this is an newbie's question, if a character has an ability that supersedes the encounter/events stated on main board, what happens when this happens: example, Grave Robber enters the graveyard with the ability to draw eight cards to pick an object for free. What happens when he has alignment changed to good by Mystique in the village, and does he still suffer the losing a life because he is now good, or he can escape it because he can use his ability to avoid the penalty? How does it work? How events on board interact with the characters? I have completely forgotten about this.

Thanks a lot for helping.

Anyway, City expansion was a wonderful addition and it changes quite a bit of things. We love it so much and it is awesome! I will post it in my session report or review when i have the time.

Jin
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Plaid Dragon
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jininthenet wrote:
Hi,
1. If the Dragon Hunter gets the Flail, so he rolls three dice for attacks and does it mean that when any of the two dice score the same result (snake eyes), the character is automatically defeated?


The DH gets two dice for his "death blow" ability. I want to say this is in lieu of a normal attack. The flail has about the same text as the death blow ability but says "to determine your attack roll". If "death blow" is not an "attack roll" I don't think you get three dice.

jininthenet wrote:
Hi,
2. What happen if the Bounty Hunter fights the Amazon and it is a tie? Do they follow Amazon's ability by battling out another fresh round, or going by the Bounty Hunter's ability whereby he wins the battle whenever it's a tie?


The BH's card states that he wins all standoffs. I think the two cards interact like this:

1) Battle is a standoff.
2) Evaluate both abilities simultaneously.
2a) Amazon ability forces another round at the same time the BH's ability simply gives him victory.
3) Because of DH ability/victory the standoff condition for the Amazon is no longer in effect and there can not be a new round of combat.

I could be wrong but that's just my interpretation.

jininthenet wrote:
Hi,
3. What happens when Reaper enters the City in terms of movement? Does it follow the one-way street rule or it may move in any direction?


I haven't seen any official ruling but our HR's say the Reaper can move pretty much wherever he wants, when he wants, and how he wants. I mean... he IS Death after all.

jininthenet wrote:
Hi,
4. When the Warrior has two Flails which he is entitle to use, it means he rolls four dice during battle?!


Ok... Now you're hurting my brain. I want to say no given that the flail text states specifically you get "two" dice... not "extra/additional" dice.

jininthenet wrote:
Hi,
5. When Bounty Hunter has a Fullplate armor, he practically has only 25% of losing, he wins when it is a win or tie, hope we get this right.


Going to have to go home and look at full plate's text on this one.

jininthenet wrote:
Hi,
6. Many characters have more than one abilities. Does all the abilities triggers when the situation occurs? Example, Sorceress may Beguile and steal followers from other characters, can she use both abilities when she land on a character, or choose only one?


This depends on the ability I'm pretty sure. In the above case I'm going to say she can interact with her target character using one ability.

jininthenet wrote:
Hi,some other characters also become an issue, such as Sprite, she replenishes one spell whenever she cast her last spell and when she enter a wood or forest she may evade monsters/characters. What if she land on a wood space and immediately cast her last spells?


The replenish ability of the sprite is independent of interacting with the space you've landed on so I'd say both occur in this case.

jininthenet wrote:
Hi,
7. Im sorry if this is an newbie's question, if a character has an ability that supersedes the encounter/events stated on main board, what happens when this happens: example, Grave Robber enters the graveyard with the ability to draw eight cards to pick an object for free. What happens when he has alignment changed to good by Mystique in the village, and does he still suffer the losing a life because he is now good, or he can escape it because he can use his ability to avoid the penalty? How does it work? How events on board interact with the characters? I have completely forgotten about this.


I'll look at his text and the Gy text when I get the chance and update this later...

I agree with you about how cool the City is. I like it ALMOST as much as Dungeon.

Can't wait for the final corner.
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Elliott Eastoe
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Plaid_Dragon wrote:
jininthenet wrote:


2. What happen if the Bounty Hunter fights the Amazon and it is a tie? Do they follow Amazon's ability by battling out another fresh round, or going by the Bounty Hunter's ability whereby he wins the battle whenever it's a tie?


The BH's card states that he wins all standoffs. I think the two cards interact like this:

1) Battle is a standoff.
2) Evaluate both abilities simultaneously.
2a) Amazon ability forces another round at the same time the BH's ability simply gives him victory.
3) Because of DH ability/victory the standoff condition for the Amazon is no longer in effect and there can not be a new round of combat.

I could be wrong but that's just my interpretation.


Disagree on this one.

The Bounty Hunter only wins a standoff once the battle has ended. The Amazon can force another round of battle & other characters may pay a fate to reroll their attack roll, before the Bounty Hunter wins any standoff.

Ell.
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Jin TS
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talismanamsilat wrote:
Plaid_Dragon wrote:
jininthenet wrote:


2. What happen if the Bounty Hunter fights the Amazon and it is a tie? Do they follow Amazon's ability by battling out another fresh round, or going by the Bounty Hunter's ability whereby he wins the battle whenever it's a tie?


The BH's card states that he wins all standoffs. I think the two cards interact like this:

1) Battle is a standoff.
2) Evaluate both abilities simultaneously.
2a) Amazon ability forces another round at the same time the BH's ability simply gives him victory.
3) Because of DH ability/victory the standoff condition for the Amazon is no longer in effect and there can not be a new round of combat.

I could be wrong but that's just my interpretation.


Disagree on this one.

The Bounty Hunter only wins a standoff once the battle has ended. The Amazon can force another round of battle & other characters may pay a fate to reroll their attack roll, before the Bounty Hunter wins any standoff.

Ell.


Hi, thanks a lot for the reply. I think i agree with Elliott on this.

Jin
 
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Jeremiah Wood
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1. Using the Deathblow ability and Flail: Both set the Number of dice used to two, not to allow Additional Dice. This means that if you use Deathblow and roll doubles, you both lose AND your opponent can't add their attack roll to their total (which doesn't matter because you lose anyway)

2. If it is a tie, Amazon can use her ability to force a mulligan, but then if it's still a tie, then the Bounty Hunter wins.

3. Reaper and Werewolf move like characters, however neither of them have Gold, so do not meet the prerequisite for entering shop squares. They can only manage to do forced laps.

4. As with #1, two dice only. The second Flail is redundant.

5. When Bounty Hunter has a Fullplate armor... it's boss. This also includes spells that force Standoffs... BH wins anyway. Ultimate tie breaker.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/922704/full-plate-and-bounty...

6. Use of a character's ability when encountering another character replaces normal rules, therefore one ability only. Sprite always has 2 spells, draw up to 2 whenever she dips below (always on).

7. Yep, he draws 8, then loses a life for being Good.
 
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Elliott Eastoe
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Toleezu wrote:
7. Yep, he draws 8, then loses a life for being Good.


I would think that he loses 1 life first of all as this is his visit (visit means follow the instructions on the space) to the space, then he would draw 8 cards!

Ell.
 
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Jeremiah Wood
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You can do it this way as well, but it is at the detriment of the Grave Robber.

Simultaneous Effects Rules put the Grave Robber in control of the order of these two effects. (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Talisman/suppo... page 3.


The Grave Robber's ability as worded lets him immediately take possession of an Item drawn, not add it to encounters. This makes it a full effect that results in +1 possible Item on resolution.


If he does it as I described earlier, he can try to cherry pick a Cross (base game) or Druidic Staff (Reaper) to bypass the loss of a life.
 
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Elliott Eastoe
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They are not simultaneous effects!

The Grave Robber ends his move on the Graveyard (lands on). To visit the Graveyard, he must follow the instructions on the space which in this case is to lose 1 life. This satisfies the conditions for visiting the Graveyard. He can then use his special ability to draw Adventure Cards as he has then visited the space. The Graverobber cannot draw Adventure Cards when he lands on the Graveyard, as this is not considered to be visiting the Graveyard (follow instructions)!

Take for instance the "Visit the Tavern" quest card:

A character moves to the Tavern and rolls the die as instructed. He follows the effects as described on the Tavern. This satisfies the conditions for visiting the Tavern. He is then immediately teleported to the Warlock's Cave and receives his Talisman (or quest reward).

Ell.
 
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Jeremiah Wood
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Almost, but you're citing an incorrect parallel. Warlock Quests follow a sequence of events culminating in transporting to the Warlock's Cave and taking the appropriate Reward. You cannot compare a Character's Ability to a Warlock Quest just because you have assumed where the 'culmination point' is. A more appropriate Character Ability to parallel to a Warlock Quest would be the Dark Cultist or the Bounty Hunter.

What the 'Visit the Tavern' wording specifically limits is landing on the Tavern and Encountering a Dragon Scale or another Player instead of the Square.

What would you do if the quest you mentioned said 'Visit the Graveyard'?
The whole reason the Simultaneous Effects rule exists is because of ambiguity. It's application in this sense is justified by its purpose.

Optional Reading Below:

Go back to the FAQ and read page 1 for Encounter Sequence.
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Talisman/suppo...

Notice that Instructions on 'Draw a card' squares is #1 and instructions for Non-Draw is #10.
It is interesting to note #2 which is when Hex is encountered, especially if you read the passage on Hex and the Druid under the description of Simultaneous Effects I mentioned before.

Both of these are 'land on' effects.
Why would multiple 'Visit' effects be different?

For that matter, why is 'land on' after Draw a Card in Encounter Sequence?
Why do Sorceress, Druid, and Thief all use 'land on', when only Druid does his thing when Encountering the Square and the others when Encountering a player? (Page 4 of the same FAQ has Druid and Sorceress)

This is why Rules exist to handle ambiguity. Sometimes the ambiguity is by design ('land on' term seems to fit this criterion) and others just by discovery.
 
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Elliott Eastoe
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If there were two items that specifically said "whenever you visit" just like "whenever you land on", I would totally agree with you. However that is not happening in the case of the Grave Robber. To "visit" the Graveyard, the Grave Robber must follow the instructions on the space and only after the "visit" has occurred can he use his special ability!

Ell.
 
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Jeremiah Wood
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Once again, you are assuming a sequence of events that is not as linear as you think it is. Please cite me where in the Rules your definition of 'Visit' exists that differs in any way from the one I described.

Here, let me give you an easy out:
Grave Robber doesn't say "After you visit", he says "Whenever you visit"
 
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Elliott Eastoe
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But to visit a space it says you must follow the instructions on the space!

You are trying to circumvent the meaning of the rules. In your scenario, you have the Grave Robber drawing 8 Adventure Cards, picking something like the Cross and then saying he is not affected by the Graveyard. This is not how the game is meant to be played.

Ps. I did help write the rules up until the Blood Moon!

Ell.
 
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Jeremiah Wood
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Chill. Out.

No one is arguing that you have to 'visit' the Graveyard.
No one is arguing that you have to follow the instructions on the Space.

What you are obstinately overstating is poor interpretation of timing rules, then clamoring that the rule that exists solely to arbitrate timing issues doesn't come into play.

You then come back with a statement that is tantamount to resting on your own laurels instead of citing any reference to rules that back up your claim.

You're entitled to an opinion, but back it up like a man!
I have provided example on example to how I reason out the issue, and all you have to say is I'm the one circumventing the rules? I bet you're one of the guys that when he gets challenged at home, your interpretation is "Because I said so".

Only one person has the right to do that, and his name is John Goodenough. Do you need to call him in to say I'm wrong for you? The last time you piped up about rules questions and that happened you were dead wrong.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/922704/full-plate-and-bounty...

This is called citing a source.
Do it more.

EDIT: Sorry to turn your awesome question into a flame war, Jin.
Hope you at least find it enjoyable ^_^
 
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Elliott Eastoe
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This is for you Jeremiah,

Vampire Hunter

"Whenever you visit the Graveyard, you may draw 1 Adventure Card instead of resolving the instructions on the space."

You land on the Graveyard and there is a faceup Dragon there. How would you proceed? Or there is a faceup Sword left by another character. How would you proceed?

Ell.

Ps. I wasn't wrong in that thread "but not for the purposes of the Bounty Hunter". Perhaps I should have worded it better. I meant that the Bounty Hunter wins because the armour states it is a standoff instead. The Bounty Hunter wins all standoffs!
 
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Jeremiah Wood
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Fair Enough!

Assumption: this is a face-up Enemy Dragon with an Encounter Number 1-3 and not a Dragon Scale. A fair enough point to also make at the beginning as there are separate rules for Dragon SCALES.

This is the point we are both arguing: 'Visiting' and its definition.
Is Visiting the intent to Encounter the Square and NOT a Dragon Scale or a Character present on the Square? It can also denote Mode of Encountering a Square, as there are spaces like the City and Village with options.

The Vampire Hunter is Declaring she is Encountering the Square.

This is where there can be a split on outcome based off how you interpret Visit: At level #10 of Encounter Sequence, or Analogous to Encounter,

Method one:

Follow the Encounter Sequence.
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Talisman/suppo...

#1 is not met as it is not , as this is not a Draw a Card Square. It is also important to note that the Vampire Hunter's investigation ability only works on squares with Draw Instructions. This ability is also off the Table at this level.

#2 We assume no Hex is present and move on.

#3 No Events, move on.

#4-6 We encounter the Dragon. Also note that at this level, if the Vampire Hunter loses, or stands off, the Turn is immediately over.
Assuming a Victory, proceed onward.

#7 No Strangers, carry on.

#8 Gold, followers, objects. Possible Sword, move along.

#9 Places. None, onward.

#10 Follow Instructions on the Square. Vampire hunter allows for a replacement of Draw a Card. If she does so, as her turn is not over, she Encounters the drawn Card (following this chart again).

Turn Over unless card drawn changes Squares.

This is also why Simultaneous Rules apply for Grave Robber.
His ability ALSO applies at level #10.

The Game doesn't Create a Level #11 for him specifically.

Now for Method Two:

By declaring she is 'Encountering the Square', her ability immediately kicks in, drawing a card.

Follow Encounter Sequence

If you do this, you streamline the encounter so it only checks once after a card is drawn.

I don't like this interpretation because it over simplifies, but it can be considered valid as well based off intent of the player and how they define 'visit'. Note: This makes the Grave Robber get an Item first 100% of the time.

Also note that NEITHER of my interpretation follow your example of forcing the Grave Robber to lose a life before using his ability.

Extra Credit lesson on Ambiguity: Same Scenario, but the Monster Pit in the Dungeon with a Merchant character already on it.

Ps. Nice deflection instead of actually citing sources for your position as I have asked for numerous times already. Once again, I can give you mine, but haven't obtained the same courtesy.
 
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Jin TS
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Toleezu wrote:

EDIT: Sorry to turn your awesome question into a flame war, Jin.
Hope you at least find it enjoyable ^_^


Wow...what a conversation! This is the reason why i pop the question on what is the actual rule on land on and visiting. It's always good to have discussion on any ambiguities, well everyone is trying to achieve the same thing, be clear with the rule...laugh

Take it easy guys...
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