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Subject: One Small Favor? rss

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Gordon J
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Lincoln's War is at $37,717 at the time of writing this, and has been surging lately and I assume it wil cross the finish line in fine fashion. Nothing could make me happier. I think this will make the mini-stretch reward and maybe....more?

But I have one small favor as this continues to climb and one that could, might, add more people, is the stretch reward of the mounted map at 61,000 or should I say the reward of Mounted Map and Paper Map. Can I ask that we flip the rewards of the Custom Dice reward level with the reward level of the Mounted/Paper map?

I am not sure what this obsession is with dice. I have dice, lots of dice, I can get dice anywhere, I don't want special dice, and certainly would not prefer dice over a mounted map. Special dice is kind of cool, I admit, but I'd rather have the mounted and paper map options (some of you, for whatever reason don't like mounted boards, god knows why--yes, I'm talking to you Albertaclipper). I think a lot of people out there like mounted boards as well--I see it when I order games from GMT, people will say, 'nice game. What no mounted map? Forget it.' I know for sure Navajo Wars got extra orders because it got the extra special mounted map treatment.

How cool would it be for this game to rocket to 50,000 because the stretch reward level was mounted maps? (And that way the world could live in harmony, mounted map lovers and crazy paper map lovers holding hands, skipping through the streets--of course I'm glossing over the fact when those two sat down to play a game a fight break out over "Paper Map?" or "Mounted Map?").

Again, I'm not an expert, I have no idea what the costs of a mounted map are, but we have a better shot at 50,000 than 60,000 for a mounted board.
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The game from my understanding only uses two dice anyway. I too would love to have a mounted map. I know some folks whenever the talk of maps comes up make a big deal about paper maps but when you see the mounted maps on GMT games like Washington's War they're fantastic. They also cost more.

Now for myself I'll pay a few bucks more for a mounted map. In fact when I was putting in my order it was going through my mind that if they had had an option minus the T-shirt but a mounted map instead I would have chosen it even if it were a few bucks more. Likely now it's to late for that but if there were any way to get a mounted map for this I'd go for it.

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yeah - all the extras - t-shirt/magnet (??) are of no interest - but obviously cost MMP - i'd prefer them to offer an option without that - but with a map - i'd throw down some extra $$ to get that..
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Since my good pal Gordon called me out specifically, I’ll just say this: Without rehashing the mounted vs. paper debate, which like many of the never-ending debates around here is wearying to be sure, I have no problem with a mounted map ONLY IF the game box grows proportionally with the map. Because after the counters are clipped and trayed up, and the cards lovingly sleeved, there tends not to be enough room to close the box. And since I’m spending all that time obsessively caretaking the counters and cards, a box that doesn’t close snuggly makes me at best cranky, and at worst, hive-ridden.

But I will agree with Gordon on one thing: I don’t care a whit about fancy-pants dice – in LW or any other game. I am not, and never have been, lacking for pretty dice.
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I know for the Dreadball Kickstarter they had your usual Stretch Rewards, but they also had Add-Ons, these basically were not Stretch Rewards, they were not Freebies in anyway. If the project hit a certain amount of money they offered you the option to $buy$ this certain thing you could add to your game. If you wanted to add it to your pledge you could, if you didn't, you wouldn't have to. Couldn't something like that be done? Say, ummm, when we hit the 40,000 mark, MMP could give us the option of adding a Mounted Board for 35$ and yes, the special dice for an additional 15$ or something like that. Even if you had to jack the price up more for the mounted boards, I'm fine with that, so long as I get the option to buy one--oh yeah, for the paper lovers, you could give them the option to buy a paper map as well, for like let's say 200$ (oh I mean, 10$). If you give me that option I'll buy Albertaclipper a paper map.

Oh you could also sell the special card sleeves you mention as well, I'd buy those up in a snap.
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    Before I proceed with my suggestion I'll fess up right now that I really don't care which format the map comes in. I play on paper maps all the time and have never had one wear out, so I don't know what the concern is.

    That said, if you want a mounted map to happen, the best thing you could do would be to take it away. Make it an exclusive reward for Kickstarter backers only, never available again. All it would require is an announcement indicating that that's MMP's plan. At that point I think a lot of people taking a wait-and-see attitude would jump on board the Kickstarter since they'll only get one bite at it.

    I'd leave the current stretch goals right where they are.

    Mounted board seems to be really important to some people, so tell them it's time to put up or shut up. People get very nervous at the thought of missing out on "exclusive" benefits.

             S.

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Sagrilarus wrote:

    Before I proceed with my suggestion I'll fess up right now that I really don't care which format the map comes in. I play on paper maps all the time and have never had one wear out, so I don't know what the concern is.

    That said, if you want a mounted map to happen, the best thing you could do would be to take it away. Make it an exclusive reward for Kickstarter backers only, never available again. All it would require is an announcement indicating that that's MMP's plan. At that point I think a lot of people taking a wait-and-see attitude would jump on board the Kickstarter since they'll only get one bite at it.

    I'd leave the current stretch goals right where they are.

    Mounted board seems to be really important to some people, so tell them it's time to put up or shut up. People get very nervous at the thought of missing out on "exclusive" benefits.

             S.





Thats brilliant, in an evil genius kind of waydevil I fully support this. At home I prefer paper maps under plexi, but I do like mounted maps as most of my ftf wargaming is done at my FLGS and I dont want to pack around my very expensive piece of non glare plexi or have to purchase a second, cheaper sheet.
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Sagrilarus wrote:

    Before I proceed with my suggestion I'll fess up right now that I really don't care which format the map comes in. I play on paper maps all the time and have never had one wear out, so I don't know what the concern is.

    That said, if you want a mounted map to happen, the best thing you could do would be to take it away. Make it an exclusive reward for Kickstarter backers only, never available again. All it would require is an announcement indicating that that's MMP's plan. At that point I think a lot of people taking a wait-and-see attitude would jump on board the Kickstarter since they'll only get one bite at it.

    I'd leave the current stretch goals right where they are.

    Mounted board seems to be really important to some people, so tell them it's time to put up or shut up. People get very nervous at the thought of missing out on "exclusive" benefits.

             S.



I like that idea!
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Brian Morris
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Bad idea. It's never a good idea to create a policy that will peeve off part of your customer base. The goal should be to make as many of your customers happy as possible. Not annoy them. People don't just get nervous about missing out on exclusive benefits but get unhappy about it. Unhappy customers tend to no longer be customers but spent their money else where.
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    Exclusives are incredibly effective sales tools.

             S.


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mrbeankc wrote:
Bad idea. It's never a good idea to create a policy that will peeve off part of your customer base. The goal should be to make as many of your customers happy as possible. Not annoy them. People don't just get nervous about missing out on exclusive benefits but get unhappy about it. Unhappy customers tend to no longer be customers but spent their money else where.


Is this true? Are there people out there ticked with Columbia games because the Napoleon they just finished funding will have a Kickstarter version which will be different from the one you will get if you didn't pre-order it? (Although I think even now Columbia will sell anyone the Kickstarter version as long as you order by a certain date.)

Being this is a niche hobby kind of pursuit I don't have any problem with a "you snooze you lose" stand by publishers. But that may just be me.
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No they aren't. Long term they turn people off. People who can't get them feel cheated and stop buying from your company. Nothing connected to your company that makes a potential customer unhappy is an effective sales tool. People aren't stupid either. They can see something manipulative for what it is leaving them with a poor view of your company. The best company policy is always the one where you deliver what a customer wants not make them unhappy they can't have something. If someone feels like they aren't getting the full game for whatever reason they simply won't buy it and spend their money elsewhere.

rhorto01 wrote:

Is this true? Are there people out there ticked with Columbia games because the Napoleon they just finished funding will have a Kickstarter version which will be different from the one you will get if you didn't pre-order it?


How ticked off do you think people are going to be down the road when they buy the game only to discover they got the stripped down version of it? That will be the last game they buy from Columbia. That and you're going to have a bunch of these stripped down versions sitting in a warehouse unsold because people don't want a stripped down version.

You can do these little manipulative marketing things but you just have to think of how are people who discover the game a year from now going to view it. No customer wants to feel they're being punished. You snooze you lose as a policy will result in you being the loser because there are plenty of other good game publishers and games for people to spend their money on.

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    Exclusives drive sales like crazy. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but people purchase early and pay big premiums for exclusive materials. It's one of those things that marketing majors study in their first year.

             S.


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Sagrilarus wrote:

Exclusives drive sales like crazy. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but people purchase early and pay big premiums for exclusive materials. It's one of those things that marketing majors study in their first year.

S.




I've been running my own business for 15 years through two recessions and we're still here. I know very well what it takes to make a company work. A lot more than some first year college student or someone who thinks what a first year college student knows equals reality.
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mrbeankc wrote:

I've been running my own business for 15 years through two recessions and we're still here. I know very well what it takes to make a company work. A lot more than some first year college student or someone who thinks what a first year college student knows equals reality.


    Very well. Please let me know when I have permission to speak again.

             S.


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Sagrilarus wrote:
mrbeankc wrote:

I've been running my own business for 15 years through two recessions and we're still here. I know very well what it takes to make a company work. A lot more than some first year college student or someone who thinks what a first year college student knows equals reality.


    Very well. Please let me know when I have permission to speak again.

             S.




Speak away but don't tell me that I don't know as much as even a first year college student. That was purposely insulting and condescending so don't act like you're some injured party.

Please understand I respect your opinion. In return respect mine as well. If your argument is a valid one it does not require you to resort to those kind of comments. I have participated with you in these forums enough to know that you are more than capable of forming your arguments well without such things.
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Back to the subject at hand. Even if Lincoln's War doesn't make it's goal for a mounted map (it looks doubtful) it would be nice if there were the option to get one. Not everyone wants one. Many people are more than happy with a paper map which is cool. I actually like the idea that you don't have to pay for a mounted map if you don't want to. I personally would like the option. Mind you as someone has said it also depends on the box. I got mounted maps for the GMT games For The People and Sword of Rome after they came out and they don't fit in the box very well. In fact I needed to get a bigger box for my For The People.
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mrbeankc wrote:
I got mounted maps for the GMT games For The People and Sword of Rome after they came out and they don't fit in the box very well. In fact I needed to get a bigger box for my For The People.


Yep, Sword of Rome was one of the games I was referring to. If the counter tray and sleeved cards don't fit, MMP, you must acquit!
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    The boardgame industry is awash in special promotions. I really am not recommending something all that out of the ordinary.

mrbeankc wrote:

Speak away but don't tell me that I don't know as much as even a first year college student.


    I didn't mean to imply you were stupid, just that it's about as foundational a marketing concept as you'll get. Putting things on sale or limiting the time they're available generates revenue. You can choose not to market that way and you can be successful doing it. Apple just advertises the crap out of everything. But the data is pretty clear -- scarcity increases demand.

    I also come from the land of H.L. Mencken, famous for the line "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." I try to remain optimistic, but everything I've seen in the last 25 years in business seems to agree with him.

    Here's the thing about limiting the availability. To some extent it indemnifies the pre-purchasers. By delivering a version that will be somewhat more valuable than follow-ons (a matter of perspective in this case, but for some a hard board is preferable) it protects the early buyers' investments. That lowers their barrier to entry at this stage of the game. I never indicated MMP should deliver an incomplete product (and there are plenty of Kickstarters that step over that line in my opinion). The difference between a mounted board and a paper map isn't significant enough to warrant that distinction.

             S.

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My comment was more aimed at this comment before my post which was not yours. I think our views are actually close and you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. This is the comment I was mainly talking about.

rhorto01 wrote:
Is this true? Are there people out there ticked with Columbia games because the Napoleon they just finished funding will have a Kickstarter version which will be different from the one you will get if you didn't pre-order it? (Although I think even now Columbia will sell anyone the Kickstarter version as long as you order by a certain date.)

Being this is a niche hobby kind of pursuit I don't have any problem with a "you snooze you lose" stand by publishers. But that may just be me.


Promotions are fine. They're great to help promote and sell. Promotions however that peeve off future customers are not great. You snooze you lose? Any company who has that attitude towards it's customers won't have them as customers for long. You have to think long term. Your customers are not just the people who use kickstarter but also the guy who might want to buy your game a year from now or two years from now. If the guy next year comes along and wants to order something and he can't and is told basically "you snooze you lose" will take his money to GMT or Fantasy Flight.

Lincoln's War is going to sell about 500 copies via Kickstarter. That leaves something in the area of 2,500 copies MMP still needs to sell depending on the total print run. So the majority of people buying this game are going to not be kickstarter people. You don't want to do anything in the short term that will make it harder for you to sell all those games in the long term.
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Sagrilarus wrote:

    The boardgame industry is awash in special promotions. I really am not recommending something all that out of the ordinary.

mrbeankc wrote:

Speak away but don't tell me that I don't know as much as even a first year college student.


    I didn't mean to imply you were stupid, just that it's about as foundational a marketing concept as you'll get. Putting things on sale or limiting the time they're available generates revenue. You can choose not to market that way and you can be successful doing it. Apple just advertises the crap out of everything. But the data is pretty clear -- scarcity increases demand.

    I also come from the land of H.L. Mencken, famous for the line "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." I try to remain optimistic, but everything I've seen in the last 25 years in business seems to agree with him.

    Here's the thing about limiting the availability. To some extent it indemnifies the pre-purchasers. By delivering a version that will be somewhat more valuable than follow-ons (a matter of perspective in this case, but for some a hard board is preferable) it protects the early buyers' investments. That lowers their barrier to entry at this stage of the game. I never indicated MMP should deliver an incomplete product (and there are plenty of Kickstarters that step over that line in my opinion). The difference between a mounted board and a paper map isn't significant enough to warrant that distinction.

             S.



Can see the merits of both sides of the coin, since ultimately it's a case of "it depends" on the type of consumer that is being referenced.

Thought I would like to highlight the part in bold, as it's a matter of perspective. Personally, having a mounted map is indeed a very big deal and would tilt the scale heavily in favor of a purchase. The game may certainly do without a mounted map, but it wouldn't last very long where I am. For the amount of money I pay for a game, I would certainly like it to last for a very long while and since humidity isn't something that I can control, I wouldn't mind paying that little more on my part to help lengthen the lifespan of my game.
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Ratio wrote:
Sagrilarus wrote:

    The boardgame industry is awash in special promotions. I really am not recommending something all that out of the ordinary.

mrbeankc wrote:

Speak away but don't tell me that I don't know as much as even a first year college student.


    I didn't mean to imply you were stupid, just that it's about as foundational a marketing concept as you'll get. Putting things on sale or limiting the time they're available generates revenue. You can choose not to market that way and you can be successful doing it. Apple just advertises the crap out of everything. But the data is pretty clear -- scarcity increases demand.

    I also come from the land of H.L. Mencken, famous for the line "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." I try to remain optimistic, but everything I've seen in the last 25 years in business seems to agree with him.

    Here's the thing about limiting the availability. To some extent it indemnifies the pre-purchasers. By delivering a version that will be somewhat more valuable than follow-ons (a matter of perspective in this case, but for some a hard board is preferable) it protects the early buyers' investments. That lowers their barrier to entry at this stage of the game. I never indicated MMP should deliver an incomplete product (and there are plenty of Kickstarters that step over that line in my opinion). The difference between a mounted board and a paper map isn't significant enough to warrant that distinction.

             S.



Can see the merits of both sides of the coin, since ultimately it's a case of "it depends" on the type of consumer that is being referenced.

Thought I would like to highlight the part in bold, as it's a matter of perspective. Personally, having a mounted map is indeed a very big deal and would tilt the scale heavily in favor of a purchase. The game may certainly do without a mounted map, but it wouldn't last very long where I am. For the amount of money I pay for a game, I would certainly like it to last for a very long while and since humidity isn't something that I can control, I wouldn't mind paying that little more on my part to help lengthen the lifespan of my game.


Mounted maps are cool, but they increase the cost of a game a lot.

Too much for us to make it an early stretch goal, as Brian just announced on the Kickstarter page. (Even if we could afford to do so, I am not sure if we are allowed to switch stretch goals in mid-stream, but we can't afford it anyway.)

Too much to make it an optional purchase.

We believe that the game will make more money (or lose us less money) with a paper map than with a mounted map.
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mrbeankc wrote:
How ticked off do you think people are going to be down the road when they buy the game only to discover they got the stripped down version of it? That will be the last game they buy from Columbia. That and you're going to have a bunch of these stripped down versions sitting in a warehouse unsold because people don't want a stripped down version.


Well, my example of the Napoleon game might not be the best example of what you are talking about. After all, one of the reasons why I didn't support that particular KS campaign was because I'm quite happy with my old AH version of that design. In this case I didn't feel like I needed all the bells and whistles.

But in general I thought the whole point of KS was to give supporters special perks unavailable to late comers. So if I support a new album and I get special downloads of demos (or whatever), I don't think the people buying the album next year have any particular right to feel like they are being ripped off by buying a "stripped down" product. It's the regular product.

Granted, I'm not the type for whom paper map vs. mounted board matters all that much, so I'm unlikely to get too worked up about the differences.

Speaking as someone who has seen some pretty lean times in the world of wargaming I'm still amazed we can be having arguments about what version of a game gets published. As one of the Four Yorkshire men would have said, "Luxury! Back in my day when you wanted a game you had to construct it yourself out of rocks and twigs!"

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perrycocke wrote:
Ratio wrote:
Sagrilarus wrote:

    The boardgame industry is awash in special promotions. I really am not recommending something all that out of the ordinary.

mrbeankc wrote:

Speak away but don't tell me that I don't know as much as even a first year college student.


    I didn't mean to imply you were stupid, just that it's about as foundational a marketing concept as you'll get. Putting things on sale or limiting the time they're available generates revenue. You can choose not to market that way and you can be successful doing it. Apple just advertises the crap out of everything. But the data is pretty clear -- scarcity increases demand.

    I also come from the land of H.L. Mencken, famous for the line "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." I try to remain optimistic, but everything I've seen in the last 25 years in business seems to agree with him.

    Here's the thing about limiting the availability. To some extent it indemnifies the pre-purchasers. By delivering a version that will be somewhat more valuable than follow-ons (a matter of perspective in this case, but for some a hard board is preferable) it protects the early buyers' investments. That lowers their barrier to entry at this stage of the game. I never indicated MMP should deliver an incomplete product (and there are plenty of Kickstarters that step over that line in my opinion). The difference between a mounted board and a paper map isn't significant enough to warrant that distinction.

             S.



Can see the merits of both sides of the coin, since ultimately it's a case of "it depends" on the type of consumer that is being referenced.

Thought I would like to highlight the part in bold, as it's a matter of perspective. Personally, having a mounted map is indeed a very big deal and would tilt the scale heavily in favor of a purchase. The game may certainly do without a mounted map, but it wouldn't last very long where I am. For the amount of money I pay for a game, I would certainly like it to last for a very long while and since humidity isn't something that I can control, I wouldn't mind paying that little more on my part to help lengthen the lifespan of my game.


Mounted maps are cool, but they increase the cost of a game a lot.

Too much for us to make it an early stretch goal, as Brian just announced on the Kickstarter page. (Even if we could afford to do so, I am not sure if we are allowed to switch stretch goals in mid-stream, but we can't afford it anyway.)

Too much to make it an optional purchase.

We believe that the game will make more money (or lose us less money) with a paper map than with a mounted map.


We appreciate the information. (Is LW's map a true paper map or a map kind of like KoH had? That harder paper/cardboard kind).
 
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