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Subject: Woodcutter + Corporate Troubleshooter rss

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Steven Tu
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So with Woodcutter + Corporate Troubleshooter, you STILL can't force the runner to encounter the ICE and kill themselves, right?

Cos the timing structure pretty much forces you to use the troubleshooter before they get to the woodcutter, and when they're there and encountering, they have first dibs to break subroutines before strength can be upped.

But somewhere I remember hearing the combo is insta-kill if done right.

Short of Whirlpool, how??
 
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Jan Bazynski
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Runner must jack out in step 2.2. You use corporate troubleshooter in 2.3

I'm SO proud to help Tuism on a run timing problem!
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Ony Moose
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You can use the troubleshooter when they approach the woodcutter which is too late for them to jack out, but before they can break the subroutines. Its certainly too late if you use it during the encounter, unless you combo it with a chum and astroscript token...

EG Runner runs, encounters Chum, then approaches woodcutter, you don't use troubleshooter (but you have to rez it at this point, as you can't rez it during the encounter.) You let them encounter woocutter and they pay to break all the subs, you then use astroscript to add one more sub and boost the strength with troubleshooter so they can't break the last sub, they take 1 net damage and 3 from chum. Of course there isn't really any reason to do that as you could have just boosted the strength beforehand...
 
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Steven Tu
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bazyn wrote:

Runner must jack out in step 2.2. You use corporate troubleshooter in 2.3

I'm SO proud to help Tuism on a run timing problem!


But dude, look look. Woodcutter is already rezzed (has to be to be of any use with 10 counters on it), so they either are prepared to break it at 2.3, or am running because errrr, I don't know.

So when it gets to 2.3, the runner gets first dibs on playing abilities.

So if you use it at 2.2, they STILL can jack out AFTER you use it.

If you use it at 2.3, it's too late because it would be AFTER they break subroutines.

So the question stands, it seems you can't auto-kill the runner with Troubleshooter + Woodcutter, unless you have Whirlpool.

---------------

Astroscript is great for Woodcutter, but is in any case open and on the table in plain sight. And relies on the runner spending every single last bit of money they have breaking Woodcutter. Rare
 
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Jan Bazynski
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Tuism wrote:
bazyn wrote:

Runner must jack out in step 2.2. You use corporate troubleshooter in 2.3

I'm SO proud to help Tuism on a run timing problem!


But dude, look look. Woodcutter is already rezzed (has to be to be of any use with 10 counters on it), so they either are prepared to break it at 2.3, or am running because errrr, I don't know.

So when it gets to 2.3, the runner gets first dibs on playing abilities.

So if you use it at 2.2, they STILL can jack out AFTER you use it.

If you use it at 2.3, it's too late because it would be AFTER they break subroutines.

So the question stands, it seems you can't auto-kill the runner with Troubleshooter + Woodcutter, unless you have Whirlpool.

---------------

Astroscript is great for Woodcutter, but is in any case open and on the table in plain sight. And relies on the runner spending every single last bit of money they have breaking Woodcutter. Rare


But using icebreakers is 3.1 You can't use them in 2.3.
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Ony Moose
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Uhmm... you can't break subroutines in 2.3, only in 3.1.

Someone made a handy reference picture showing this!

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Jan Bazynski
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The only possible explanation is that Tuism' account has been hacked!
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Steven Tu
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OMG ok I don't know what socks I'm smoking, thanks for bringing back my sanity

So to summarise, you CAN force an encounter on a Troubleshot piece of ICE.

Right. What am I thinking???? Else troubleshot Archer wouldn't be a thing

(been away from troubleshooter too much )
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Ony Moose
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The only combo you can't do is Troubleshooter->DataRaven. As you have to boost the Raven with troubleshooter BEFORE they get the choice to ETR or take a tag. Most runners will choose to ETR if they can't break the raven or the trace, wasting your money. (Although if you just want them to jack out, I guess its a good use of a troubleshooter)
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Kandiru wrote:
The only combo you can't do is Troubleshooter->DataRaven. As you have to boost the Raven with troubleshooter BEFORE they get the choice to ETR or take a tag. Most runners will choose to ETR if they can't break the raven or the trace, wasting your money. (Although if you just want them to jack out, I guess its a good use of a troubleshooter)


Especially if there's a Junebug behind that Data Raven.
 
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B C Z
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Tu, have a Snickers... You're not yourself today.
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Kevin Kennedy
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The only caveat is that you have to Rez the Trouble Shooter before when they encounter the ice (at 2.3) but you don't have to ACTIVATE it until 3.1.

I faced a similiar problem with Femme Fatales sitting on Personal Workshop:
My opponent has a Femme Fatale on their PW.
I have a Corporate Troubleshooter and a nasty piece of ice with limited number of subroutines.

What's stopping the runner from just using their Femme Fatale to negate my Troubleshooter:

A tricky bit of timing:
The runner has to use Personal Workshop's ability when you rez the ice in order to bypass it with Femme. (At 2.3)
You DO have to rez the Troubleshooter at this point but you don't have to use the ability until after they've encountered the ice at 3.1.

They can still choose to bring Femme into play knowing that you have the Troubleshooter but you won't have paid the credits for the Trouble Shooter in this case.
 
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Milan Mašát
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ugagamers wrote:
The only caveat is that you have to Rez the Trouble Shooter before when they encounter the ice (at 2.3) but you don't have to ACTIVATE it until 3.1.

I faced a similiar problem with Femme Fatales sitting on Personal Workshop:
My opponent has a Femme Fatale on their PW.
I have a Corporate Troubleshooter and a nasty piece of ice with limited number of subroutines.

What's stopping the runner from just using their Femme Fatale to negate my Troubleshooter:

A tricky bit of timing:
The runner has to use Personal Workshop's ability when you rez the ice in order to bypass it with Femme. (At 2.3)
You DO have to rez the Troubleshooter at this point but you don't have to use the ability until after they've encountered the ice at 3.1.

They can still choose to bring Femme into play knowing that you have the Troubleshooter but you won't have paid the credits for the Trouble Shooter in this case.

You can not use troubleshooter at 3.1 (properly). Runner has to do his things first, so he just breaks all subroutines, then you raise the strength, which is useless...
 
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Andrew Lieffring
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Vodnyk wrote:
ugagamers wrote:
The only caveat is that you have to Rez the Trouble Shooter before when they encounter the ice (at 2.3) but you don't have to ACTIVATE it until 3.1.

I faced a similiar problem with Femme Fatales sitting on Personal Workshop:
My opponent has a Femme Fatale on their PW.
I have a Corporate Troubleshooter and a nasty piece of ice with limited number of subroutines.

What's stopping the runner from just using their Femme Fatale to negate my Troubleshooter:

A tricky bit of timing:
The runner has to use Personal Workshop's ability when you rez the ice in order to bypass it with Femme. (At 2.3)
You DO have to rez the Troubleshooter at this point but you don't have to use the ability until after they've encountered the ice at 3.1.

They can still choose to bring Femme into play knowing that you have the Troubleshooter but you won't have paid the credits for the Trouble Shooter in this case.

You can not use troubleshooter at 3.1 (properly). Runner has to do his things first, so he just breaks all subroutines, then you raise the strength, which is useless...


Here's how the PW'd Femme/Troubleshooter mindgames play out, all in 2.3:

-Corp Rezzes Ice Wall. Corp also rezzes Troubleshooter, but doesn't use it. Passes.
-Runner sees Troubleshooter. Brings Femme into play so that the Ice's strength doesn't matter. Passes.
-Corp passes. The runner has Femmed a piece of Ice for no good reason.

Alternatively:

-Corp Rezzes Ice Wall. Corp also rezzes Troubleshooter, but doesn't use it. Passes.
-Runner sees Troubleshooter. Saves Femme for something more worthwhile. Passes.
-Corp doesn't have a chance to use Troubleshooter. Oops.
 
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Jan Bazynski
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IncompleteUserNa wrote:
Vodnyk wrote:
ugagamers wrote:
The only caveat is that you have to Rez the Trouble Shooter before when they encounter the ice (at 2.3) but you don't have to ACTIVATE it until 3.1.

I faced a similiar problem with Femme Fatales sitting on Personal Workshop:
My opponent has a Femme Fatale on their PW.
I have a Corporate Troubleshooter and a nasty piece of ice with limited number of subroutines.

What's stopping the runner from just using their Femme Fatale to negate my Troubleshooter:

A tricky bit of timing:
The runner has to use Personal Workshop's ability when you rez the ice in order to bypass it with Femme. (At 2.3)
You DO have to rez the Troubleshooter at this point but you don't have to use the ability until after they've encountered the ice at 3.1.

They can still choose to bring Femme into play knowing that you have the Troubleshooter but you won't have paid the credits for the Trouble Shooter in this case.

You can not use troubleshooter at 3.1 (properly). Runner has to do his things first, so he just breaks all subroutines, then you raise the strength, which is useless...


Here's how the PW'd Femme/Troubleshooter mindgames play out, all in 2.3:

-Corp Rezzes Ice Wall. Corp also rezzes Troubleshooter, but doesn't use it. Passes.
-Runner sees Troubleshooter. Brings Femme into play so that the Ice's strength doesn't matter. Passes.
-Corp passes. The runner has Femmed a piece of Ice for no good reason.

Alternatively:

-Corp Rezzes Ice Wall. Corp also rezzes Troubleshooter, but doesn't use it. Passes.
-Runner sees Troubleshooter. Saves Femme for something more worthwhile. Passes.
-Corp doesn't have a chance to use Troubleshooter. Oops.


Wouldn't the runner bring Femme into play during 3.1? That's no mind game.
 
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Steven Tu
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IncompleteUserNa wrote:

Alternatively:

-Corp Rezzes Ice Wall. Corp also rezzes Troubleshooter, but doesn't use it. Passes.
-Runner sees Troubleshooter. Saves Femme for something more worthwhile. Passes.
-Corp doesn't have a chance to use Troubleshooter. Oops.


I don't believe this is true, runner sees troubleshooter, doesn't use the femme, and passes. During the same timing gap, after the runner passes on the femme, corp can use troubleshooter, if they wanted to.

What would prevent corp using troubleshooter?

A timing gap doesn't end because the one side passed.
 
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Jan Bazynski
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Tu, doesn't the section end after two passes?
 
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Steven Tu
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bazyn wrote:
Tu, doesn't the section end after two passes?


But there hasn't been two passes. It was runner's initiative. So runner passes. Then it's the corp's opportunity. Corp uses Troubleshooter. Or not. But he has a chance to.

2.3. Approached ICE can be rezzed
Paid ability can be used
cards can be rezzed.
2.4. Check if ICE is rezzed.
3. Runner Encounters Ice if rezzed.
3.1. Icebreakers can interact
Paid abilities can be used


And the whole thing doesn't play out just in 2.3 - 2.3 is for rezzing ICE. Then we're at 3.1, runner chooses, etc.
 
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Ony Moose
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If one side doesn't do anything the other side doesn't get a second chance to do stuff in that timing window.

So if the corp rezzes ICE and a troubleshooter, then passes the runner just passes and timing moves into 2.4, then 3.1 and the runner breaks the ICE before the corp can use the troubleshooter. The corp *could* astroscript a token onto a woodcutter/tyrant and then use the troubleshooter, preventing the runner from breaking it *and* preventing the runner from deploying the femme as its too late to bypass now!

Femme on a workshop is a great counter to a troubleshooter.
 
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Joshua Siegfried
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bazyn wrote:
Tu, doesn't the section end after two passes?


Not exactly.

The rules state:
After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more paid abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so.

As long as the runner or corp actually do something, they can go back and forth for ever.

It's after they have each had a chance to do something and one player chooses to do nothing that the step ends.

So...
-Corp Rezzes Ice Wall. Corp also rezzes Troubleshooter, but doesn't use it. Passes.
-Runner sees Troubleshooter. Saves Femme for something more worthwhile. Passes.
-Corp doesn't have a chance to use Troubleshooter. Oops.

...is correct.

-Runner has a chance to do something first, but has nothing to do yet.
-Corp Rezzes Ice Wall. Corp also rezzes Troubleshooter, but doesn't use it. Passes.
-Runner sees Troubleshooter. Saves Femme for something more worthwhile. Passes. (This is where the runner declines to act and ends the step)
-Corp doesn't have a chance to use Troubleshooter. Oops.

 
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Steven Tu
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Kandiru wrote:
If one side doesn't do anything the other side doesn't get a second chance to do stuff in that timing window.

So if the corp rezzes ICE and a troubleshooter, then passes the runner just passes and timing moves into 2.4, then 3.1 and the runner breaks the ICE before the corp can use the troubleshooter. The corp *could* astroscript a token onto a woodcutter/tyrant and then use the troubleshooter, preventing the runner from breaking it *and* preventing the runner from deploying the femme as its too late to bypass now!

Femme on a workshop is a great counter to a troubleshooter.


OK I see what was meant now. There is another breaker in play that could break the ICE without Femme.

AH. That wasn't clear to me
 
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Brian Moore
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Tuism wrote:
OK I see what was meant now. There is another breaker in play that could break the ICE without Femme.

AH. That wasn't clear to me


That isn't really why though, double pass is not required. Each player gets one opportunity to use paid abilities. After that a single pass ends the cycle. A pass is not I use x, y, and z then pass. A pass is "I choose to play no paid abilities."

The reason corp troubleshooter is useless in 3.1 is because the runner already had the opportunity to break and bumping the strength after that is useless. If they couldn't break, they couldn't break anyways.

If the corp uses 3.1 to move an Astroscript token to a woodcutter and uses corporate troubleshooter, then chooses not to play any more paid abilities, the runner then can choose to play paid abilities. Since a pass is when no paid abilities are used the runner could actually pay for Femme fatale (off of workshop), declare Woodcutter as the target, and bypass. The above statement that it's too late to deploy fem is incorrect.

From the rulebook:

Quote:
After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so. Page 21


Edit: Not trying to sound condescending here, the only reason I looked this up was because I had a game where it mattered recently.
 
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Niil945 wrote:
If the corp uses 3.1 to move an Astroscript token to a woodcutter and uses corporate troubleshooter, then chooses not to play any more paid abilities, the runner then can choose to play paid abilities. Since a pass is when no paid abilities are used the runner could actually pay for Femme fatale (off of workshop), declare Woodcutter as the target, and bypass. The above statement that it's too late to deploy fem is incorrect.


I don't think Femme Fatale can bypass at 3.1. She triggers "when you encounter that ice", which happens before 3.1.

The updated timing chart specifically says:
"3. The Runner ENCOUNTERS a piece of ice. (‘When encountered’ conditionals meet their trigger conditions)"
 
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Brian Moore
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slacks wrote:
I don't think Femme Fatale can bypass at 3.1. She triggers "when you encounter that ice", which happens before 3.1.

The updated timing chart specifically says:
"3. The Runner ENCOUNTERS a piece of ice. (‘When encountered’ conditionals meet their trigger conditions)"


You know that's a good catch that I didn't make in my previous game. She could put the bypass token on, but wouldn't actually be able to bypass due to the conditional. That's a weird line of thought but I get the logic of it.

In that specific situation it doesn't actually change anything as FF can still be brought out and would still only pay 1 to get past it if corporate troubleshooter isn't used, while allowing the owner to put the ff token wherever (which would be smart because of the strength of the ice) or if the corp used corporate troubleshooter they could use ff to break if they could afford it, but not bypass. Thank you for picking up on that =)
 
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Kevin Kennedy
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It's a good thing I revisited this thread. I had forgotten that the runner can break all the subroutines before you get a chance to boost them with Corporate Troubleshooter.

On the other hand if you did have an Autoscript Pilot Program and a Troubleshooter you could still force them to encounter one subroutine at 3.1 at boosted strength.

Which is so what? for Woodcutter but might actually be useful for Tyrant.
 
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