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Subject: 4 Agendas and No Ice: What will you do? rss

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John Choong
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I am wondering what will you guys do if you have in your starting hands FOUR agendas and NO ICE after your mulligan.
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Dom Rougier
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Lose, usually.

Otherwise it's important not to panic, you can draw up and perhaps even discard one of those agendas.
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Jose Angel Garcia Gomez
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¿How many ice cards did you have in the deck? You have a free draw at the start of your turn, then you can draw 2 cards for 2 clicks, hopefully find at least one ice and install it in HQ.
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mks
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Domfluff wrote:
Otherwise it's important not to panic, you can draw up and perhaps even discard one of those agendas.

+1 for discarding an agenda. it is a game of bluff afterall.
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Mat Nowak
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Leave HQ open and bluff the runner into not running on it.
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Yep, against a criminal however there's no chance of that. They'll run until they don't hit an agenda. And most other runners will take an HQ run to check a few cards at least.

I would probably draw twice. If I hit an Ice on any of the draws, I would play it on HQ or even play it as a remote with an agenda and try to score them quickly, might work against big rigs or noise mill. If not, I'd discard 2 agendas.
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Iain Galloway
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brighknight_216 wrote:
I am wondering what will you guys do if you have in your starting hands FOUR agendas and NO ICE after your mulligan.


I won the corp-side of my final swiss game in a recent large tournament at Conpulsion in Edinburgh with no ICE in the top 15 cards of my deck. Don't get me wrong, you are likely to lose this game, but it can be won - and you can snatch up enough points for a match victory even if you lose the game.

Two things before we start:-

A) Don't end up in this situation. Make sure your deck is well shuffled. Make sure your deck has an appropriate number of ICE. Don't mulligan slightly-below-average hands. Obviously your deck will occasionally give you the finger, but your first port of call is to limit this to as few games as possible.

B) In about half of my non-competitive games I do not give myself the option to mulligan so that I get a little extra practice playing bad hands.

That said, some more useful advice:-

1) Don't panic. You're in a bad situation, but there's no sense making it worse by telegraphing it to your opponent. You're at a disadvantage, but you can win these games. Your opponent will know that you didn't draw two ICE, but he will not know that you drew four agendas.

2) Don't "bluff" verbally if you don't normally do so. When you tell your opponent something about your hand (regardless whether it's true of false) you give away information. Unless your opponent is much worse than you, they will spot inconsistent behaviour and will know something is up. Focus less on verbally convincing your opponent that you have a hand you don't have, and more on not giving away any information that you don't have to.

3) Consider drawing a seventh card with your first action hoping to draw ICE - especially if your mandatory draw was ICE. Draw a card, shuffle your hand, install 2x ICE is a strong opener that doesn't telegraph too much. If you still have no ICE after 7 cards, though, you'll need to get creative.

4) Do you have any 3/2s? Consider playing one or more of them naked into remote servers. Many runners will assume you played money assets and either ignore them or wait until after you've paid for them before wasting clicks. This works better if you did draw some expensive-to-trash assets and can install them alongside your naked agenda, and works best with AstroScript Pilot Program and Accelerated Beta Test.

5) Do you have any 2/1s? Consider going ahead and just scoring one out of your hand - especially Hostile Takeover.

6) If you're playing Weyland or especially NBN, consider taking three bits.

7) None of the above? You've spent your first click to draw a 7th card and it's not ICE? Consider drawing another card. If it's ICE, install it in front of HQ. This is a bad situation to be in, because the runner now knows you have agendas in HQ. Sneakdoor, Inside Job, and Crypsis can wreck you. Noise with Medium and/or Imp can leave you ICEless for several turns.

8) If you still have no ICE, your best play is likely to be to spread out your agendas as much as possible. Install the easiest-to-score agenda in a remote server, and discard one or two agendas into archives such that running your remote + archives doesn't result in an instant game win for the runner.
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Mark Campo
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you could also try to re-make deck with less agenda cards..
its a sacrifice get some high point agenda over many low point agendas
risky if they get picked out by the runner but less likely also..
i went from 12 to 9 and it made a big difference though not as cool agendas :-/

i lost my tourney as i had agenda hands, i off set slightly being jinteki and the trap fear allowed me to ice up a few a little to late though.
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Magnus Benzein
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It will depend alot on your deck and perhaps even more important what your opponent know about your deck.

Faking money assets (for HB/NBN) might work, especially if you drew an ICE to put into HQ. Jinteki can just install stuff as usual
For Weyland drawing cards is probably the best option since they dont tend to have alot of assets.
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Eric Rampson
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It depends what else is in my hand, honestly. If, after the mandatory draw, my hand is Agenda x4, PAD Campaign, Hedge Fund, for example, I'd:

0) Give absolutely no indication that anything is wrong
1) Install PAD Campaign
2) Install 3/2 Agenda, if possible
3) Take one credit

My reasoning is as follows:

Runners are *usually* going to ignore naked Remotes against anyone other than Jinteki (and even then they may give them a pass).

Unless my deck has decided it truly hates me, there probably isn't an Agenda on top, so I feel fine about leaving it.

If the Runner isn't Gabe, they will often ignore a wide open HQ because they will figure you wouldn't just leave a three+ Agenda open. You might have one Agenda, which gives them a 25% to find it, or 2 Agendas, which gives them a 50-50 chance. Most Runners would rather better their own position at that point than "waste" a click on an, at best, 50% chance.

If the Runner is Gabe, especially the kind of Gabe that barely installs anything, they will often run first click at an undefended HQ to get their credits. If they hit an Agenda, they are likely to call it a day, and try some other targets (R&D, a Remote). If they then hit the Agenda-bearing Remote, they may come back to your hand, reading the reality of the situation (you installed a naked Agenda, had one in hand, and STILL didn't protect HQ? You ain't got no ICE). If that happens, well, buckle up, Sally, it's going to be a rough ride.

Against Gabe, I would:

0) Give absolutely no indication that anything was wrong
1) Draw a card
If the card is ICE, then 2) Install in front of HQ; and 3) Take a credit
If the card isn't ICE, then 2) Draw a card
If the second draw is ICE, then 3) Install in front of HQ and discard two Agendas.
If the second draw isn't ICE, then 3) Install 3/2 Agenda naked and discard two Agendas.
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Adam Perry
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i would rework them back into my deck
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David Jensen
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With the right kind of deck design you should see this less than 5% of games and only see that exact composition after 2 draws less than 1% of games. I'm refering to at least 19 ICE and 10 Agenda compositions.

Actions:
Draw Draw
If still no ICE - it happens - keep these in mind:

Try to leave as much non ICE in your hand. This means using anything you can to absorb the incoming HQ attackes.

Trash assets/upgrades since these have trash costs the runner can use these to thin out my hand.

I don't use HedgeFunds with my third click if that's my only non-ICE.

I personally don't play agendas into the remote any more (or rarely do). If I this I play the lowest point asset there with my third click.

This is basically a time where you are screwed and you can only hope that runner accesses that 1 nonAgenda at least one of the times he gets into HQ.

When you are down 6-0 from the start think wisely about your opponents faction and what your deck is capable of. In a tournament try to get some thing on the board anything!
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K S
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spadovsky wrote:
Domfluff wrote:
Otherwise it's important not to panic, you can draw up and perhaps even discard one of those agendas.

+1 for discarding an agenda. it is a game of bluff afterall.


+1 again, this was actually one way my buddy learned corp. It was his 3rd game, #2 was his first try at Corp and I trounced him. I tried explaining everything to him and then he seemed lost, so I told him you get to learn by failure. So game 2 he had a better handle on it but forgot/didn't realize I access everything when I get through, he discarded 2 agendas way earlier in the game (I didn't think he'd do such a thing so I never bothered accessing them and used other abilities like hit his HQ etc). He was like "WHAT!!! ohhhhhhhh ok now it all makes sense" and pulled an amazing fast one on me and really learned some good psych moves and crushed me...
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Nate K
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Am I playing Jinteki? Which agendas are in my hand? What's the non-agenda card? How much ICE am I packing in my deck? Which ID is my opponent playing? Do I know the opponent? How good am I at bluffing him or her?

ARRGGGHHHH, there are just too many unknown variables! I can't make a good decision based on the information provided!



Also, what are the statistical odds of drawing 4 of my 11 agendas and no ICE in a 49 card deck that contains 22 pieces of ICE?
 
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Randolph Bookman
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In the recent tournament. I saw guys shuffling and then dealing out 7 stacks to distribute cards "evenly". Well I did that in my first match and my all my agendas ended up on top and I lost.
 
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Steven Tu
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shieldwolf wrote:
In the recent tournament. I saw guys shuffling and then dealing out 7 stacks to distribute cards "evenly". Well I did that in my first match and my all my agendas ended up on top and I lost.


Do this:

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Brian H
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^^ That guy looks pissed that the shuffling is taking so long, lol.
 
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Bingo Little
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Stat-time baby.

In a 49 corp card deck with 11 agendas, 18 ice and 4 agendas in a 5 card hand, your probability of drawing an agenda on the next draw are 40.9%. Interestingly, the odds of drawing another agenda are 13.7%.

In the next two draws, the odds of getting 1 ice are 65.6% (not bad).

In a 20 ice deck the odds of getting an ice on the next draw are 45.5% and 70.8% for 2 cards drawn.
 
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Thee Insidius Doktor Glaze & His Sidekick Donut Boy with the Amazing Monkeytime Dancers Ooh!
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sciencebuster wrote:
In a 49 corp card deck with 11 agendas, 18 ice and 4 agendas in a 5 card hand, your probability of drawing an agenda on the next draw are 40.9%. Interestingly, the odds of drawing another agenda are 13.7%.


Odds for a fifth agenda = 7/44 = 16%
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Lluluien
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Scud-O wrote:

Runners are *usually* going to ignore naked Remotes against anyone other than Jinteki (and even then they may give them a pass).


People really do this? I see this referenced a lot, and I made a comment on one of Db0's videos one time that he set himself up to lose on accident once to give Noise even an EXTRA reason to do the equivalent of this to him on an unguarded Archives once. But even in that game, Db0 won, because as Scud said, the Runner didn't take a free (cost only the click) look at cards that might be points, in spite of the fact that in the position he was currently in, getting lucky on cashing in the virus mills was about the only possible way he would have won (and there more than enough points needed for him to win that particular time).

The opportunity here for payoff for almost nothing makes the value so huge, and the dangers of doing this are so very small, and 10-15 turns from now you're going to be paying 4-5 credits to get to look at another card whose identity you don't know and be happy for how "cheap" you got it...

Why not spend the click on turn 1? That seems like lunacy to me. But apparently people DO forgo it.

You could make the opposite play against me every time. I'll run every single face-down card that I can look at for 1 click behind no ICE. How much can you really cost me this way across the whole game for me to guarantee that you don't sneak easy points by me?
 
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lluluien wrote:
People really do this?
Sometimes, yes, Runners do ignore the lone card in an undefended remote. Good players scarcely will ignore, but it happens. Often there's that hunch it's a Snare! or a high-trash-cost-asset.

Heck, with less than 4 credits (which is trash a Pad Campaign) I'm pretty sure I've done it myself.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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dr glaze et al wrote:
lluluien wrote:
People really do this?
Sometimes, yes, Runners do ignore the lone card in an undefended remote. Good players scarcely will ignore, but it happens. Often there's that hunch it's a Snare! or a high-trash-cost-asset.

Heck, with less than 4 credits (which is trash a Pad Campaign) I'm pretty sure I've done it myself.



This is a game theory problem.
If you ALWAYS ignore the server, I can put out agendas face down, and score them, at will.

If you ALWAYS run the server, I can waste your time and money really easily with stupid cards and trap cards.

The correct play is to run them some percentage of the time. What that percentage is depends on lots of factors, and is very complicated.

You cant let yourself become predictable and either always or never run it.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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dr glaze et al wrote:
lluluien wrote:
People really do this?
Sometimes, yes, Runners do ignore the lone card in an undefended remote. Good players scarcely will ignore, but it happens. Often there's that hunch it's a Snare! or a high-trash-cost-asset.

Heck, with less than 4 credits (which is trash a Pad Campaign) I'm pretty sure I've done it myself.


Yup. If I have fewer than 4 credits or fewer than 3 cards, it's way too big a risk.
 
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Andrew Barrett
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Scud-O wrote:
It depends what else is in my hand, honestly. If, after the mandatory draw, my hand is Agenda x4, PAD Campaign, Hedge Fund, for example, I'd:

0) Give absolutely no indication that anything is wrong
1) Install PAD Campaign
2) Install 3/2 Agenda, if possible
3) Take one credit

My reasoning is as follows:

Runners are *usually* going to ignore naked Remotes against anyone other than Jinteki (and even then they may give them a pass).

Unless my deck has decided it truly hates me, there probably isn't an Agenda on top, so I feel fine about leaving it.

If the Runner isn't Gabe, they will often ignore a wide open HQ because they will figure you wouldn't just leave a three+ Agenda open. You might have one Agenda, which gives them a 25% to find it, or 2 Agendas, which gives them a 50-50 chance. Most Runners would rather better their own position at that point than "waste" a click on an, at best, 50% chance.

If the Runner is Gabe, especially the kind of Gabe that barely installs anything, they will often run first click at an undefended HQ to get their credits. If they hit an Agenda, they are likely to call it a day, and try some other targets (R&D, a Remote). If they then hit the Agenda-bearing Remote, they may come back to your hand, reading the reality of the situation (you installed a naked Agenda, had one in hand, and STILL didn't protect HQ? You ain't got no ICE). If that happens, well, buckle up, Sally, it's going to be a rough ride.

Against Gabe, I would:

0) Give absolutely no indication that anything was wrong
1) Draw a card
If the card is ICE, then 2) Install in front of HQ; and 3) Take a credit
If the card isn't ICE, then 2) Draw a card
If the second draw is ICE, then 3) Install in front of HQ and discard two Agendas.
If the second draw isn't ICE, then 3) Install 3/2 Agenda naked and discard two Agendas.


I think if you draw 2 cards and then install ice on your HQ it completely telegraphs that your hand is stacked. At the same time, drawing 2 cards, installing an agenda, and discarding 2 agendas seems like a horrible play.

If the agendas are all in your hand at least the runner has to make 3 runs to score them all, and you can possibly score them yourself if you pull out of this fix, but putting 6 undefended agenda points on the table is just a terrible strategy. On turn 2, assuming your 3/2 didn't get stolen you are now skipping your whole turn, going down to 2 credits and passing your hopelessly poorly defended centrals over to the runner to crush you.

and if my opponent discarded 2 cards on turn 1, I would run their archives first click every single time. There is an unreal amount of information to be gained from seeing what my opponent thinks he doesn't need on the first turn of the game for a single click.

This whole situation is hinged on what your non agenda card is.
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GS
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"Accidentally" knock my R&D and HQ onto the ground, mixing their contents entirely, forcing a second mulligan devil
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