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Subject: Can someone post example moves? rss

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Hans van der Drift
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I am about 75% on the way to understanding the mechanics/rules.


One way I understand games is to read examples of several turns (they do this a lot in Euro games, the back pages are 3 to 4 turns long)


Would any have an example of a staged setup with a few rounds? Then I can follow the book as if you were in front of me and I could watch the moves and see, then I would get it.

Thanks in Advance.
 
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Hammock Backpacker
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I'd benefit from this as well.

Sometimes, showing works better than telling.
 
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Todd
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Might I suggest a sample assault, too? I'm trying to get my head around the turns leading up to and including assault.

Thanks,
Maus
 
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Hans van der Drift
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ok, ok, ok... I just can't stand it anymore. If no one is going to do it then that's ok, but if some one is working on some example moves or a few rounds of play can you just let me know.

My copy sits on my home office desk and I look at every night I come home. It is becoming my nemesis.

Sometimes I feel like I get it than another confusing aspect comes up. The real killer is that people on this thread say its fast and simple.

Maybe Cory Williamson can make an addition to his condensed rules? Please.

I know we are all busy and I think this would be a great addition to help players grasp Bonaparte at Marengo.

Thanks

Hans

 
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If you have Cyberboard, perhaps some experienced players from the BaM ladder can send you some game files to look through. Then you can see a whole game played out legally.

Otherwise the best way to learn is just to set the game up and play through both sides solitaire. It will take you maybe three or four solo games to get 90% of the rules down, then you'll need to play against a human. Stefan O'Sullivan's player aid is worth printing out also.
 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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hvddrift wrote:
Maybe Cory Williamson can make an addition to his condensed rules? Please.


Expanded condensed rules!

Hang on, Hans. I don't think you'll have to wait much longer for something better.
 
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Hans van der Drift
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Do you mean just the standard rules them self? Quite witty...
 
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Justin
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Quote:
Hang on, Hans. I don't think you'll have to wait much longer for something better.


who is working on something better?
 
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Mark Christopher
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Arg, I made this damn avatar for myself so I guess it's a duty to come up with something. I'm too tired now, but if I don't post a simple portion of a turn tomorrow, someone nag me.
 
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Hans van der Drift
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That will be great. Thank you in advance.

 
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Ethan McKinney
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Aren't there some examples on the Consimworld board? Admittedly, you'd need to wade through the messages.
 
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Rachel Simmons
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hvddrift wrote:
ok, ok, ok... I just can't stand it anymore. If no one is going to do it then that's ok, but if some one is working on some example moves or a few rounds of play can you just let me know.

My copy sits on my home office desk and I look at every night I come home. It is becoming my nemesis.

Sometimes I feel like I get it than another confusing aspect comes up. The real killer is that people on this thread say its fast and simple.


I did refer you to some complete game transcripts posted on ConSimWorld when you emailed me about this. Were you not able to find them or were they not helpful? If not helpful, could you say what it was you were looking for that they (and the examples in the rules) did not provide?
 
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Hans van der Drift
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bowen wrote:
hvddrift wrote:
ok, ok, ok... I just can't stand it anymore. If no one is going to do it then that's ok, but if some one is working on some example moves or a few rounds of play can you just let me know.

My copy sits on my home office desk and I look at every night I come home. It is becoming my nemesis.

Sometimes I feel like I get it than another confusing aspect comes up. The real killer is that people on this thread say its fast and simple.


I did refer you to some complete game transcripts posted on ConSimWorld when you emailed me about this. Were you not able to find them or were they not helpful? If not helpful, could you say what it was you were looking for that they (and the examples in the rules) did not provide?


I did find it, and I sat down with my clever friend and we both read the rules, then at the point of utter confusion read the example. I guess its the way I process information but it just did not seem congruent with the rules. We just felt demoralized and confused.

I love Mark Christopher's avatar. That is a great example of how I process information. Someone has suggested to use cyberbox as an graphical interface to describe the moves. I think that is a brilliant idea.

It seems that I understand the rules in there separate entities, but the melding of them is what confuses me. I know I do not have specifics here (what you asked for) what I will do is take another look at the game this weekend and see what is tying me up.

 
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Hans, did you have a look at the road movement diagram in the BGG files? That might help a bit:

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/viewfile.php3?fileid=14542
 
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OK, I'm going to provide lesson one right here by examining Mark's excellent animated avatar above. Anybody that wants to follow along should pull out their map and locate the village labeled Lungafame on the southern road (I'll use the conventions of the map at the Simmons Game website and call this location area 38). Place a French 2-infantry there. The area to the southwest of Lungafame is designated area 27 - place two Austrian units there, one of them being a cavalry (other can be anything). The third area visible in the avatar, to the southeast of Lungafame, is area 37.

So, the Austrian player has two units in area 27. He starts his turn by spending a command point to make a maneuver attack against area 38. He declares that only one unit (not the cavalry) is taking part in the maneuver attack.

The French unit is infantry, and would have to take a step loss if it retreats, so the French player decides to block. He places his unit in the approach. The Austrian does the same with his participating unit (although he has the option to remain in reserve if he chooses).

The Austrian player then spends his second command point to send his cavalry along the minor road into 37, and on into 38, conducting another maneuver attack. Since the sole defender is now in the 38/27 approach, and no units remain in reserve, the maneuver attack can't be blocked. As a result, the French defender must retreat northward to area 39. This causes the unit to lose one step, so the 2-inf is replaced with a 1-inf and the morale track is adjusted. The 1-inf is placed in reserve in area 39.

The Austrian cavalry has only moved two areas along the road, so it can now continue its movement. Interestingly, it could continue moving along connecting roads into either area 27 (the area it started from) or area 37 (the area it passed through). Note that it can't backtrack along the road it entered on, but that minor road connects with the major road which continues back across the approach, making the move legal.

Also note that the area 39 approach has a cavalry-obstructing symbol. This prevents the cavalry from making another maneuver attack along the road against the just-retreated unit. If that area were empty, the cavalry could move there by road, or if not cavalry obstructed, it could maneuver attack there, but in this case it can do neither.

The cavalry obstruction does not technically prevent the cavalry from continuing along that road segment to end movement in the 38/39 approach, but the cavalry has no ability to maneuver attack or assault from there, so this would be pointless.

Finally, the cavalry could choose to end its turn in reserve in area 38. This would make it eligible for free movement along the major road in the subsequent turn.

The Austrian player still has a third command point to expend elsewhere on the board, plus perhaps some free road movement. At the end of the Austrian player turn, the unit that made the original maneuver attack must fall back from the 27/38 approach to 27 reserve. This requires no command points, and is required, not optional, because no enemy units now occupy area 38.
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Quote:
who is working on something better?


Two prominent BaM players who shall remain nameless (*cough*haggerty*jarvinen*cough*) have played a demonstration game via cyberboard. Modestly titled "The Game of the Century", it will eventually be coming to a web site near you, with screen shots of each player turn and accompanying commentary.
 
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Jorge Montero
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I've played the game a few times, but I was confused by the transcript in CSW. Since I've not asked for permission to copy the entire transcript, I'll just copy the first two turns:

Austrian 6 a.m.
1) Reinforcement moves by road through 1 and 2, and enters 5 reserve (cp).
2) Reinforcement moves by road through 1 and enters 2 reserve.
3) Reinforcement moves by road to 1 reserve.
4) Reinforcement moves by bridge to 1 reserve (cp).

French units in 3, 4 and 9 are all activated automatically. The French also activate the unit in 8.

French 6 a.m.
1) 2-cav in 8 moves by road to 4 and maneuver attacks 2. Austrian 2-cav retreats to 5, and French 2-cav enters 2 reserve.
2) One unit in 9 moves to 8 (cp).

Morale A16 F17
******************************************

Austrian 7 a.m.
1) One unit in 1 maneuver attacks into 2 (cp). French 2-cav retreats to 3, and Austrian enters 2 reserve.
2) Other unit from 1 moves by road to 2.
3) Reinforcement moves by road through 1 and 2, and enters 5 reserve (cp).
4) Reinforcement (2-cav) moves by road through 1 and 2, and continues to 2/5 approach.
5) Reinforcement moves by road to 1 reserve.
6) Reinforcement moves by bridge to 1 reserve (cp).

French 7 a.m.
1) One unit in 3 enters 3/2 approach (cp).
2) Unit in 4 enters 4/2 approach (cp).

3) Unit in 3 reserve moves to 4 (cp).

**********************************

The lines that are marked in bold indicate units moving into empty approaches without attempting manouver attacks.

The first one, (Austrian 7 AM, 4) seems illegal to me according to section 8 of the rules, since there are no enemy units in locale 5.

As far as the french moves go(French 7 AM, 1&2), they seem legal, but I'm not all that sure about their purpose. I don't see anything in the rules that prohibits moving a piece to an unblocked approach from reserve without starting a manouver attack. Uunless there's a unit in the opposite approach, the only thing the french is trying to gain is to force the Austrian to either block the approaches on his turn, paying command points, or allow an unblockable manouver attack into region 2. If the French started two manouver attacks instead, the austrian could block the approaches without spending command points.

Does this make any sense? Am I reading the transcript wrong?
 
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hibikir wrote:
I've played the game a few times, but I was confused by the transcript in CSW.


And rightly so. There are some typos which I wasn't aware of. We actually played the game by cyberboard, so this transcript didn't get the proper scrutiny.

Quote:
4) Reinforcement (2-cav) moves by road through 1 and 2, and continues to 2/5 approach.

The first one, (Austrian 7 AM, 4) seems illegal to me according to section 8 of the rules, since there are no enemy units in locale 5.


The move should actually read as follows:

4) Reinforcement (2-cav) moves by road through 1 and 2, and continues to 2/3 approach.

Quote:
French 7 a.m.
1) One unit in 3 enters 3/2 approach (cp).
2) Unit in 4 enters 4/2 approach (cp).

3) Unit in 3 reserve moves to 4 (cp).

As far as the french moves go(French 7 AM, 1&2), they seem legal, but I'm not all that sure about their purpose. I don't see anything in the rules that prohibits moving a piece to an unblocked approach from reserve without starting a manouver attack.


Correct.

Quote:
Uunless there's a unit in the opposite approach, the only thing the french is trying to gain is to force the Austrian to either block the approaches on his turn, paying command points, or allow an unblockable manouver attack into region 2. If the French started two manouver attacks instead, the austrian could block the approaches without spending command points.

Does this make any sense?


It makes perfect sense. Note that the moves to the two approaches aren't quite identical, once the typo in the Austrian move is corrected. The Austrian has placed a cavalry in 2/3, and French failure to block the approach will result in the capture of area 3 by the Austrians on the following turn. With a French unit in the approach, the Austrian could assault, but the assaulting cavalry unit would be eliminated (the approach has an attack penalty symbol).

The French move into 4/2 is exactly as you described. The Austrian can't ignore it, because the French could then re-take 2 with a maneuver attack. Responding to it, however, may not be what the Austrian wants to do with his limited resources. The French player is attempting to limit the Austrian options, and disrupt the tempo of the Austrian advance.

Quote:
Am I reading the transcript wrong?


You read it fine. With the typo corrected, it should make better sense.

 
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Another correction from that same game:

Austrian 8 a.m.
3) 2-cav in 1 moves by road to 2 and enters 2/3 approach.

Should instead read:

3) 2-cav in 1 moves by road to 2 and enters 2/4 approach.
 
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Hans van der Drift
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hibikir wrote:
I've played the game a few times, but I was confused by the transcript in CSW. Since I've not asked for permission to copy the entire transcript, I'll just copy the first two turns:

Austrian 6 a.m.
1) Reinforcement moves by road through 1 and 2, and enters 5 reserve (cp).
2) Reinforcement moves by road through 1 and enters 2 reserve.
3) Reinforcement moves by road to 1 reserve.
4) Reinforcement moves by bridge to 1 reserve (cp).

French units in 3, 4 and 9 are all activated automatically. The French also activate the unit in 8.

French 6 a.m.
1) 2-cav in 8 moves by road to 4 and maneuver attacks 2. Austrian 2-cav retreats to 5, and French 2-cav enters 2 reserve.
2) One unit in 9 moves to 8 (cp).

Morale A16 F17
******************************************

Austrian 7 a.m.
1) One unit in 1 maneuver attacks into 2 (cp). French 2-cav retreats to 3, and Austrian enters 2 reserve.
2) Other unit from 1 moves by road to 2.
3) Reinforcement moves by road through 1 and 2, and enters 5 reserve (cp).
4) Reinforcement (2-cav) moves by road through 1 and 2, and continues to 2/5 approach.
5) Reinforcement moves by road to 1 reserve.
6) Reinforcement moves by bridge to 1 reserve (cp).

French 7 a.m.
1) One unit in 3 enters 3/2 approach (cp).
2) Unit in 4 enters 4/2 approach (cp).

3) Unit in 3 reserve moves to 4 (cp).

**********************************

The lines that are marked in bold indicate units moving into empty approaches without attempting manouver attacks.

The first one, (Austrian 7 AM, 4) seems illegal to me according to section 8 of the rules, since there are no enemy units in locale 5.

As far as the french moves go(French 7 AM, 1&2), they seem legal, but I'm not all that sure about their purpose. I don't see anything in the rules that prohibits moving a piece to an unblocked approach from reserve without starting a manouver attack. Uunless there's a unit in the opposite approach, the only thing the french is trying to gain is to force the Austrian to either block the approaches on his turn, paying command points, or allow an unblockable manouver attack into region 2. If the French started two manouver attacks instead, the austrian could block the approaches without spending command points.

Does this make any sense? Am I reading the transcript wrong?


Bowen, Jorge just saved me the going though the replay again. That is where i got confused. At 7am part 4 I said, "I don't get it, buts lets just keep going..."

From there other confusing things happened. I think the transcript is great, I just get confused. I think we shall have some nice answers over the next few days.

Fingers crossed.
 
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Hans van der Drift
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Sphere wrote:
Quote:
who is working on something better?


Two prominent BaM players who shall remain nameless (*cough*haggerty*jarvinen*cough*) have played a demonstration game via cyberboard. Modestly titled "The Game of the Century", it will eventually be coming to a web site near you, with screen shots of each player turn and accompanying commentary.


George that sounds great. Looking forward to seeing it.
 
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Mark Christopher
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Wow, I leave the forum for a few hours and it suddenly gets much better in here. laugh

Hans and George, thank you for the compliments on my avatar. I'm normally indifferent to animated ones, but have seen a couple that I liked (particularly the Go one that shows a series of moves, and the one where the meeple is wandering around a field before being chased off by a unit of M'44 panzers) and tried to make this as interesting/informative.

George, thanks for detailing the moves in my avatar ()I hadn't thought of it as a teaching tool before!) and for posting that transcript; I'd forgotten about it completely! Hans, would you like any more help? I imagine that George's comprehensive posts have answered most of your questions so I'm not sure what else we can do, though I can see if I can't create a graphic or two illustrating part of the transcript George posted; it does help when you're able to see the moves. That is, once the busy part of the day here at work is done.

I can't wait to see Dick and Garry's "Game of the Century".
 
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hvddrift wrote:
It seems that I understand the rules in there separate entities, but the melding of them is what confuses me. I know I do not have specifics here (what you asked for) what I will do is take another look at the game this weekend and see what is tying me up.


My best suggestion would be, then, to try to play the game again. If, especially after George's posts, you have the basics of the rules down, play a learning game to see just how they interact. I believe that Bowen specifically didn't refer to aspects like that in the rules to allow players to discover them. Indeed, when my FTF opponent and I started learning the game together, it was marvelous seeing those interactions revealed; when and why to move into an approach rather than maneuver attack across it, when and when not to assault, even if you know the assault itself will succeed (re: the rule that no units other than the victorious assaulting units can enter a locale for the rest of that player's turn), etc.

I'm happy to help, of course, but you may not want to cheat yourself of one of the joys of this game.
 
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Rachel Simmons
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There are two full game transcripts posted by George Fagin to CSW. (Some errors were found yesterday and corrections were added this morning). URLs below:

George's game with Andy Wright:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?13@230.o96AbGIxMyt.673023@....

George's game with Garry Haggerty:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?13@230.o96AbGIxMyt.673023@....


 
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markus_kt wrote:
I'm happy to help, of course, but you may not want to cheat yourself of one of the joys of this game.


In general, I make it a policy not to give advice on strategy and tactics, as I believe that the discovery process is one of the pleasures of the game, and over-teaching deprives people of that pleasure. There is the added problem that if I do offer such advice, it tends to be seen as "authoritative" and tends to shut down investigation (people may think they have The Answer, and don't look for different - and possibly better - answers on their own anymore).

It is obviously a problem, however, when people are so stuck that they don't play the game at all and receive no pleasure from it. I hope that the peer advice I've referred to can at least get them unstuck without the problem of the answer being seen as authoritative because it comes from me. I would also suggest that people not over-use this resource: when you have people give you answers to problems, you don't get a chance to solve them yourself, which is generally a much more interesting experience.
 
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