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Subject: Wall Advantage question rss

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Gordon Watson
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I originally learnt ASL under the 1st Edition rules and after a break of some 15 years am back playing it again now under 2nd Edition rules. The wording (possibly the rules themselves) appear to have changed for 'Wall Advantage' and my oponent and I were left struggling over the follwing (fairly basic) case yesterday.



An SSR was in effect that all hedges were stone walls. There were also more squads on the board but these were all that were relevant.

The British squad highlighted in green, fired at the German squad during the Prep fire phase and the german squad used the +3 TEM for the building. This had no effect on the German squad.

In the movement phase the British squad highlighted in red, successfully threw smoke into F5 and then assault moved into it. The German squad then First Fired at the now adjacent British squad - does the British squad get to claim immediate WA against that defensive fire?

The example in the 2nd edition rulebook (and which I notice is still the same as the one in the 1st edition rulebook, despite the extensive wording changes) suggests not as the British squad has entered the adjacent hex during that move - however as the German squad used the +3 TEM of the building in the British Prep fire phase has it relinquished the ability to claim WA for subsequent actions that turn.

Thanks in advance.
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Mark Evans
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The British squad can immediately claim wall advantage. (Also note there were errata pages on this topic published in Action Pack 4, make sure you get those).
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drmark64 wrote:
The British squad can immediately claim wall advantage. (Also note there were errata pages on this topic published in Action Pack 4, make sure you get those).


Yes, as Mark says it can. The WA rules got a big re-write in AP4, and a lot was clarified, lots of examples were added, much clearer (in terms of ASL clear) than before.
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domus_ludorum wrote:
Does the British squad get to claim immediate WA against that defensive fire?


Slight amendment to the previous answers.

It's not the case that the British squad can claim WA. The British squad must claim WA, as WA is mandatory in this instance. It's not an option to do otherwise.
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Gordon Watson
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Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify/confirm a couple of other things on the above -

- For the German squad to have denied the moving British squad WA it would have had to claim a WA at the end of the Rally Phase and be marked as such, even though there was no British squad adjacent to it at that time. I.e., it would not have been sufficient for the German squad not to have been fired at and be able to claim WA when the British moved adjacent on the basis it had not used the +3 building TEM. Correct?
(I think that is how it would have worked under 1st Edition, i.e. the German squad could have claimed WA denying it to the British)

- If a German squad had been on the 1st floor in F4, I am assuming the British squad would not be able to claim WA against any First Fire attacks on it from there.

- If there has been another German squad in G4 which claimed WA this would have prevented the moving British squad from claiming WA, even against the German squad in F4 in it's ground floor location as shown. (I suspect there is a different answer if playing DASL)
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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domus_ludorum wrote:
- For the German squad to have denied the moving British squad WA it would have had to claim a WA at the end of the Rally Phase and be marked as such, even though there was no British squad adjacent to it at that time. I.e., it would not have been sufficient for the German squad not to have been fired at and be able to claim WA when the British moved adjacent on the basis it had not used the +3 building TEM. Correct?
(I think that is how it would have worked under 1st Edition.)

Correct.

Quote:
- If a German squad had been on the 1st floor in F4, I am assuming the British squad would not be able to claim WA against any First Fire attacks on it from there.

No, the British unit would still have claim WA and fire from the 1st Level would still give the British full Wall TEM. Fire from the 2nd Level, however, would reduce the Wall TEM to +1, but that doesn't affect the ability to claim WA.

Quote:
- If there has been another German squad in G4 which claimed WA this would have prevented the moving British squad from claiming WA, even against the German squad in F4 in it's ground floor location as shown.

Correct, but vs fire from the ground level of F4 the British would still the the Wall TEM, even though they don't have WA, since the Germans in F4 don't have WA either.
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Gordon Watson
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
[q="domus_ludorum"]
Quote:
- If a German squad had been on the 1st floor in F4, I am assuming the British squad would not be able to claim WA against any First Fire attacks on it from there.

No, the British unit would still have claim WA and fire from the 1st Level would still give the British full Wall TEM. Fire from the 2nd Level, however, would reduce the Wall TEM to +1, but that doesn't affect the ability to claim WA.


That's counter intuitive - I can see the rationale around the other rules but I don't see this one. I could understand if the British were able to claim WA after it completed it's movement, as long as the German squad did not have WA (the latter are in the building set back from the wall so don't have a good view over it - however if the Germans were on the 1st floor they would be able to see over the wall as the British approached until they actually reached it). I know it is sometimes dangerous to try and interpret the rules by analogy to what is happening, but is this definitely right?
 
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It's correct.

Bear in mind that moving one level up represents moving one(ish) storey upwards, i.e. 4-5 metres in most cases. A hex is 40 metres wide, or so. So, a unit at Level one doesn't have an unimpeded view over a 1 - 1.5 metre wall or hedge that's probably 10 or 15 metres away.
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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domus_ludorum wrote:
That's counter intuitive - I can see the rationale around the other rules but I don't see this one. I could understand if the British were able to claim WA after it completed it's movement, as long as the German squad did not have WA (the latter are in the building set back from the wall so don't have a good view over it - however if the Germans were on the 1st floor they would be able to see over the wall as the British approached until they actually reached it). I know it is sometimes dangerous to try and interpret the rules by analogy to what is happening, but is this definitely right?

One has to remember though that all terrain in ASL is an abstraction - it doesn't specify how tall a building level is, or how tall a wall is.

The rules are clear though - you need a height advantage greater than the range to reduce the Wall TEM.

It is akin to the situation where a squads moves into a single-hex building and the building depiction itself is very small - barring a Snap Shot you don't get to shoot at them before they are considered inside/have-protection-of the building, even though most of the 2 MF expenditure is probably spent moving up to the building in otherwise open ground.
 
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Eoin Corrigan wrote:
domus_ludorum wrote:
Does the British squad get to claim immediate WA against that defensive fire?


Slight amendment to the previous answers.

It's not the case that the British squad can claim WA. The British squad must claim WA, as WA is mandatory in this instance. It's not an option to do otherwise.


I was going to point that out in my post, but forgot. Thanks!
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Jeffrey D Myers
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On another note, the squad could not throw smoke into an adjacent hex and then _assault_ move into it, as this would take 4MF.
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Stephen Stewart
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If the German had claimed the TEM for the Wall, could he "maintain" the Wall TEM against the moving unit?

 
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The German unit could not claim the wall TEM during the British MPh - it would have had to have been marked with a WA counter from the preceding German APh (or a prior point in the game).

However, if that was the case, i.e. the German unit had WA during the British MPh, the British Prep Fire phase would have been 4+2 (as hedges are walls by SSR) and, assuming the German squad passed any MC or PTC, its defensive fire shot would have been 8+1 (doubled fp, +2 infantry smoke, -1 ffnam).
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Klas Malmstrom
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Eoin Corrigan wrote:
The German unit could not claim the wall TEM during the British MPh - it would have had to have been marked with a WA counter from the preceding German APh (or a prior point in the game).

The Germans in F4 could also have claim WA during the British Player Turn Rally Phase.

Also, if the British unit in G5 (which took WA when it entered G5) later moved away in its MPh, the Germans in F4 can claim WA again (regardless of whether it has claimed the building TEM earlier this turn), per B9.322: "Claiming WA is voluntary [EXC: 9.323], and can be done by a unit at five times:... ...whenever all enemy units lose/forfeit WA over shared wall/hedge hexsides..."

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klasmalmstrom wrote:

The Germans in F4 could also have claim WA during the British Player Turn Rally Phase.


True dat
 
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Gordon Watson
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When we were actually playing there were a few more British squads (and German as well) in the vicinity and the smoke the British assault moved into was actually thrown by another squad, so the assault move was legit.

Thanks for all the discussion points - although it does appear to be the 'rules', I don't like the fact that a squad could claim WA and the +2 TEM for the wall as it moves into the hex (actually +1 as the height advantage does reduce it but still prevents moving squad incurring FFMO.

If I go up to my first floor window and there is a meter and a half wall/fence within 15 metres of it, I get a pretty clear sight of anyone moving towards it, until they get within about 10 yards of the wall - that's 30 metres of open ground they need to cover - or it would be if the neighbours shed wasn't in the way.
 
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domus_ludorum wrote:
When we were actually playing there were a few more British squads (and German as well) in the vicinity and the smoke the British assault moved into was actually thrown by another squad, so the assault move was legit.

Thanks for all the discussion points - although it does appear to be the 'rules', I don't like the fact that a squad could claim WA and the +2 TEM for the wall as it moves into the hex (actually +1 as the height advantage does reduce it but still prevents moving squad incurring FFMO.

If I go up to my first floor window and there is a meter and a half wall/fence within 15 metres of it, I get a pretty clear sight of anyone moving towards it, until they get within about 10 yards of the wall - that's 30 metres of open ground they need to cover - or it would be if the neighbours shed wasn't in the way.


So what your saying is there is actually a covered approach to the wall in your example? Look around most built up areas and you'll see dead ground everywhere. There is a good argument for having a "dead ground" rule for Open Ground hexes!
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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domus_ludorum wrote:
...(actually +1 as the height advantage does reduce it but still prevents moving squad incurring FFMO.

Remember thought that the reduction in TEM only applies if you are at Level 2 and adjacent - being only at Level 1 is not enought to lower the Wall TEM.
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Gordon Watson
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Vinnie37 wrote:
domus_ludorum wrote:
When we were actually playing there were a few more British squads (and German as well) in the vicinity and the smoke the British assault moved into was actually thrown by another squad, so the assault move was legit.

Thanks for all the discussion points - although it does appear to be the 'rules', I don't like the fact that a squad could claim WA and the +2 TEM for the wall as it moves into the hex (actually +1 as the height advantage does reduce it but still prevents moving squad incurring FFMO.

If I go up to my first floor window and there is a meter and a half wall/fence within 15 metres of it, I get a pretty clear sight of anyone moving towards it, until they get within about 10 yards of the wall - that's 30 metres of open ground they need to cover - or it would be if the neighbours shed wasn't in the way.


So what your saying is there is actually a covered approach to the wall in your example? Look around most built up areas and you'll see dead ground everywhere. There is a good argument for having a "dead ground" rule for Open Ground hexes!


That is true there is a huge amount of clutter in most urban and even rural environments but that abstraction affects the entire concept of open ground rather than walls.
 
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Dan Fielding
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May the Germans place one squad in the building and another behind the wall?
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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Gronak wrote:
May the Germans place one squad in the building and another behind the wall?

Yes, all units in the same Location need not share the same WA status.
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Dan Fielding
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But they are all one target? So different counters would have different DRM?
 
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Martin Vicca
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Yes.
 
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