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Axis & Allies: WWI 1914» Forums » Rules

Subject: sub question and tanks during amphibious assault rss

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Hi,

Question 1:
Can subs move undetected through naval mine fields?
rulebook p. 17 (Naval Mine Fields): '… ANY enemy ship that moves into or through such a sea zone may strike a mine.'
Any ship means submarines too, but
the rulebook p. 16 says (Submarines): 'Submarines are capable of moving undetected due to their ability to submerge …'
Example:
Austria-Hungary wants to send submarines from sea zone 18 to reinforce the (trapped) fleet of the Ottoman Empire in sea zone 20. What happens?
A) the subs may strike mines in sea zone 17 and have to roll the dies.
B) the subs submerge in sea zone 18, move undetected through sea zone 17 (they head for Turkey, physically they don't come close to the naval base/Mine Fields of Rome) and emerge safely in sea zone 20.

Question 2:
Do tanks have 1 or 2 special ability/abilities?
p. 19 in the rulebook describes their special ability to absorb hits,
but on page 22 I read 'attacking (offloaded from transports) tanks do not absorb hits as they are being brought ashore'. Does this refer to the same ability or is it a second?
Example:
The united kingdom (UK) attacks an Ottoman army in Trans-Jordan with some infrantry from Egypt and with 2 transports carrying 4 tanks from India. What happens?
A) Ottoman artillery can make their pre-emptive strike against the UK tanks. UK removes 4 hits/dies.
B) There is no pre-emptive strike, because only tanks are offloaded. The UK tanks can use their absorb hits-abillity later in the fight.

If the answer is B, aren't tanks overpowered during an amphibious assault? And is this not pro-allies (UK and US), who (at least in our games) use much more transports?

T(h)anks!
 
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Ubergeek
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Quote:
Can subs move undetected through naval mine fields?

No. It still rolls for mines. (A)

Quote:
Do tanks have 1 or 2 special ability/abilities?

On attack only, tanks absorb one hit per tank in the battle (very powerful).

On an amphibious assault where the defender has artillery, they roll one die per artillery. Tanks do not take hits, but all hits must be accounted for.

So in the example you give, if you're offloading 2 infantry and 4 tanks, and take 4 hits, the infantry would take hits. As a result, you cannot offload the tanks since there must always be one infantry present.
Quote:

However, if after offloading you would not have at least one infantry unit in the territory, you may not offload.

This is hidden in the rules p.22 under Sea Combat.

Note that this would not prevent other units attempting to land from taking hits as well. For example, I'm landing 2 infantry, 2 artillery, and 2 tanks and I take 4 hits. I would lose my infantry and artillery and my tanks would not offload. At least that's my interpretation of the amphibious invasion rule. My justification is that if the situation was an invasion with just 2 infantry and 2 artillery taking 4 hits, all would be wiped out. It's just the tanks special ability combined with the rule under sea combat that keeps them from offloading.

The rules do state:
Quote:
The last offloading infantry unit may not be selected as a casualty unless either it is the last remaining offloading unit of any kind

This is the rules that effectively states all hits must be accounted for. So you take hits on everything else first until you get to the last offloading infantry which is required. If it takes a hit because it's the last unit that can take a hit then the tanks never offload (and my reasoning is that there's nobody left to hold a beachhead).

However, if you also invade from an adjacent territory in combination with an amphibious assault, and have one infantry that attacks from land, you could offload those tanks as the land infantry attack is not affected by the artillery strike. A final note is if you have an amphibious reinforcement, you would have already had an infantry in that contested territory and the defender cannot preemptively strike with their artillery. Thus, you could offload all your units with no risk.

And yes, tanks are very powerful on attack. But there still always needs to be an infantry present in the attack for them to show their worth.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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cyber wrote:
Question 2:
Do tanks have 1 or 2 special ability/abilities?
p. 19 in the rulebook describes their special ability to absorb hits,
but on page 22 I read 'attacking (offloaded from transports) tanks do not absorb hits as they are being brought ashore'. Does this refer to the same ability or is it a second?

It's the same ability. The rule is indicating that it doesn't apply to defending artillery's pre-emptive strike during an amphibious assault.

cyber wrote:
Example:
The united kingdom (UK) attacks an Ottoman army in Trans-Jordan with some infrantry from Egypt and with 2 transports carrying 4 tanks from India. What happens?
A) Ottoman artillery can make their pre-emptive strike against the UK tanks. UK removes 4 hits/dies.
B) There is no pre-emptive strike, because only tanks are offloaded. The UK tanks can use their absorb hits-abillity later in the fight.

The answer is A. Any hits from the Ottoman artillery are scored against the offloading tanks, as the tanks cannot absorb (cancel) any of the hits.
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Quote:
The answer is A. Any hits from the Ottoman artillery are scored against the offloading tanks, as the tanks cannot absorb (cancel) any of the hits.


So it's an interpretation of wording issue? I quoted right out of the rules above. Again from the rules regarding the preemtive artillery strike:

Quote:
You must then immediately remove one unit for each hit scored (attacking tanks do not absorb hits as they are being brought ashore).


So I must have read it differently. Is it that the "tanks" can't absorb the hits, or that the tank's "ability" to absorb his doesn't work in an amphibious assault? If the latter, then it makes sense that the tanks could be destroyed. Now in looking at it again it makes more sense that everything is offloaded first before the artillery strikes.

The quote under Sea Combat is misleading and probably serves only as a reminder that if you don't have an infantry to offload in the amphibious assault, you can't perform one (unless you broght in infantry from an adjacent territory).

So that being the more likely case, in the example where 2 infantry and 4 tanks take 4 artillery hits, you could destroy 3 tanks and 1 infantry and still conduct the amphibious assault.

Thanks Kevin.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Walt Mulder wrote:
The quote under Sea Combat is misleading and probably serves only as a reminder that if you don't have an infantry to offload in the amphibious assault, you can't perform one (unless you broght in infantry from an adjacent territory).

How is it misleading? You could end up without any infantry to offload either due to casualties from the sea battle or to transports striking mines. In either case, you wouldn't be able to offload unless there was at least one infantry arriving by land.
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Marcel van der pol
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I think that the rules should be interpreted as such:

1) When conducting an amphibious assault, all defending artillery get to fire a pre-strike at the amphibious units (not at units attacking over land).
2) ALL hits caused by the artillery MUST be taken as a casualty amongst the amphibious units. This can include infantry, artillery, tanks and planes.
3) If you have a choise about which units to remove, if at least ONE attacking infantry remains, the offloading proceeds as planned.
4) If no attacking infantry is present in the area where the amphibious assault takes place after resolving the artillery pre-strike, no offloading of ANY units may take place there.
5) The tank ability to "cancel" ONE hit without being destroyed itself (its normal ability during a combat where the tank is attacking) does NOT work against the artillery pre-strike when the tanks are participating from an amphibious assault.
6) Rule 5 does NOT mean that the tanks cannot be taken as a casualty from the artillery pre-strike, as all hits must be accounted for.

Basically, tanks CAN be taken as a casualty and MUST be taken as a casualty if enough hits are caused by the artillery, and tanks CANNOT cancel hits caused by artillery during the artillery pre-strike. Otherwise, tanks act just like any other unit.

So, suppose I have the following situation. I launch an amphibious assault with 2 infantry, 2 artillery and 2 tanks against an area with 4 artillery. During the artillery pre-strike, 4 hits are caused. The tanks do NOT absorb 2 hits in this case. I can do the following as the defender:
1) Remove 2 infantry and 2 artillery, keeping the tanks alive. However, the tanks cannot unload now because there no longer is an attacking infantry. The tanks are then returned to the transport.
2) Remove 1 infantry, 2 artillery and 1 tank, keeping 1 infantry and 1 tank alive. Because I have an attacking infantry, the offloading takes place and normal combat will happen there. During the normal combat, the tank will "cancel" one hit as normal for attacking tanks.



 
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Kevin Chapman
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That isn't quite right, Marcel. Your steps 1, 2, 5, and 6 are correct. However, the artillery pre-emptive strike occurs after the attacking units are offloaded, but before the land combat is resolved. The pre-emptive strike can't prevent offloading, because it has already happened. Simply put, the casualty choices from the pre-emptive strike cannot result in there being no infantry left in the attacking force. (If any infantry units entered the territory by land, amphibious casualties may be taken without restriction.)
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