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Subject: Daredevil + R2 Astromech rss

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Neil, the Tusken Tactician
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Daredevil says "Action: Execute a red [ [left turn] 1] or [ [right turn] 1] manouevre. then, if you do not have the [boost] action icon, roll 2 attack dice. Suffer any damage [ [hit] ] or critical damage [ [critical] ] rolled."

R2 Astromech says "Treat all 1- and 2-speed manoeuvres as green manoeuvres."

Does this mean that the R2 unit turns the redness of the 1-turn into happy greenness? After all, it does say "all 1- and 2-speed manoeuvres" should be treated as green maneuvres?

Please say yes, please please please please.

 
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Jeff Dunford
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The answer is not "yes."

(I said "yes")

"Cannot" (and red, etc) trumps "can", so an ability or special case that makes something red will override something that would make it green.
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Neil, the Tusken Tactician
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iNano78 wrote:
The answer is not "yes."

(I said "yes")

"Cannot" (and red, etc) trumps "can", so an ability or special case that makes something red will override something that would make it green.


I thought about that but I was hoping that because it didn't say "cannot" it might be different.

So, the only way this would work would be R2 Astromech + Daredevil + Boost, which would be very expensive just to get 1 turns?



 
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Derrick Billings
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This came up over on FFG boards and the consensus is that as written, R2 Astromech *does* cause Daredevil to be green.*

While there is a FAQ entry that says effects which raise the difficulty trump effects which lower it, Ion Token and Daredevil just specify a given difficulty which R2 could treat as a Green maneuver.

However, in order to not rip your wings off in short order, You've got to run Boost + Daredevil + R2 Astromech, and right now only Luke and Wedge can load all those options.

I personally expect that FFG will clarify the FAQ entry to say that any fixed difficulty maneuver created by card text cannot be lowered.

*due to the timing charts you do not get a chance to Check Pilot Stress as a result, you just don't get a new Stress Token.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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Tusken Raider wrote:
iNano78 wrote:
The answer is not "yes."

(I said "yes")

"Cannot" (and red, etc) trumps "can", so an ability or special case that makes something red will override something that would make it green.


I thought about that but I was hoping that because it didn't say "cannot" it might be different.

So, the only way this would work would be R2 Astromech + Daredevil + Boost, which would be very expensive just to get 1 turns?

Depends what you mean by "work." You will gain stress from Daredevil no matter what (*edit* unless you side with the discussion on the FFG forums?). R2 will help you clear that stress, but isn't totally necessary (unless you want to try this with a Y-wing). If you don't use Engine Upgrade, you might also take damage so it's best to do this with an A-wing or ship with Engine Upgrade.
 
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Matthew McFarland
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I don't think the "can" and "cannot" argument applies in this case; neither card is telling you that you can't do something. Daredevil tells you execute a maneuver that happens to typically be classified as a red, but R2 reclassifies it as a green. You never execute a red move, you execute a green move that would be red for someone else.

I'd say the OP is right in his assessment, but I've been surprised by rulings before.
 
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Todd Elliott
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Tusken Raider wrote:
Daredevil says "Action: Execute a red [ [left turn] 1] or [ [right turn] 1] manouevre. then, if you do not have the [boost] action icon, roll 2 attack dice. Suffer any damage [ [hit] ] or critical damage [ [critical] ] rolled."

R2 Astromech says "Treat all 1- and 2-speed manoeuvres as green manoeuvres."

Does this mean that the R2 unit turns the redness of the 1-turn into happy greenness? After all, it does say "all 1- and 2-speed manoeuvres" should be treated as green maneuvres?

Please say yes, please please please please.




I'm inclined to rule that the maneuver is classified as green because I see nothing that would contradict that. Cards and abilities stack all the time (and is a big part of what makes building ships fun!) I don't think that saves the ship from having to roll the 2 attack dice and apply damage however.
 
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Creed Buhallin
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Despite ongoing attempts to create one, there is no general "worst wins" rule in X-wing. There are two specific cases which are similar:

1. "Can't" beats "can"
2. If two different effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, the more difficult one wins

(1) doesn't apply, because neither ability even says can't. You also can't (pun intended) arbitrarily extend that to difficulties.

(2) doesn't apply either, because there is only one effect that is changing the difficulty - the R2 Astromech. Ion tokens and Daredevil both specify a maneuver, but they don't change anything. Lots of people seem to WANT it to, but it doesn't. My simple question on this is "If it's changing it, then what's it changing it FROM?" The maneuver has to exist with a different color before it can be changed.

With neither case applying, there's nothing to stop the R2 from doing its thing. Worth noting here too that it would apply to the {1 Ahead} maneuver forced by an ion token.

This one seems to really bother a lot of people for some reason. Not really sure why, it's a very limited combo with questionable applicability... it's always possible FFG will choose to errata it, but until they do the actual rule is pretty clear, IMHO.
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Jeff Dunford
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Eyefink wrote:
I don't think the "can" and "cannot" argument applies in this case; neither card is telling you that you can't do something. Daredevil tells you execute a maneuver that happens to typically be classified as a red, but R2 reclassifies it as a green. You never execute a red move, you execute a green move that would be red for someone else.

I'd say the OP is right in his assessment, but I've been surprised by rulings before.


Technically you're right. It's a similar but different situation described in the FAQ:
X-wing FAQ wrote:
Q: If two or more game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, which effect takes priority?

A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty. For example, if a ship equipped with R2 Astromech is dealt the Damaged Engine card, all of the ship's turn maneuvers are treated as red maneuvers, including the 1- and 2- speed turn maneuvers.


I guess the exact wording of Daredevil is causing the hang-up. If it said "perform a 1-turn maneuver. This maneuver becomes a red maneuver," then it would clearly obey the FAQ. But because it tells you the maneuver is red, it didn't "change," so one can argue that the FAQ doesn't apply. Very hair-splitty if you ask me.
 
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Robert M.
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Grimwalker wrote:
This came up over on FFG boards and the consensus is that as written, R2 Astromech *does* cause Daredevil to be green.*

(Snip)

*due to the timing charts you do not get a chance to Check Pilot Stress as a result, you just don't get a new Stress Token.

You probably don't want to go down that road: if timing means a green Daredevil doesn't clear stress, then logically it also means a red Daredevil doesn't cause stress.

Since the latter is technically defensible but unreasonable, let's go ahead and allow green Daredevil to remove stress.
 
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Brian Huhtala
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The Daredevil card specifically says to execute a red turn 1. Thus, I don't believe you can change the color of that turn.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
Grimwalker wrote:
This came up over on FFG boards and the consensus is that as written, R2 Astromech *does* cause Daredevil to be green.*

(Snip)

*due to the timing charts you do not get a chance to Check Pilot Stress as a result, you just don't get a new Stress Token.

You probably don't want to go down that road: if timing means a green Daredevil doesn't clear stress, then logically it also means a red Daredevil doesn't cause stress.

Since the latter is technically defensible but unreasonable, let's go ahead and allow green Daredevil to remove stress.


I was trying to think of a situation where that would matter. The only pilot that could take Daredevil while stressed is Tycho, but he can't use R2 to make it green. If a pilot could use both Push the Limit and Daredevil with R2, Daredevil would happen before PtL gains stress so a green Daredevil couldn't clear PtL's stress. Squad Leader or Lando won't let a stressed ship perform an action (free or otherwise), so again, you couldn't take Daredevil in order to clear the stress.
 
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David Pontier
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I think FFG's broad statement of things increasing difficulty trumping would be more cut and dry if this was on a TIE, Interceptor, A-Wing, or Falcon. All 4 of those ships have a 1-Turn maneuver and they are white. Daredevil makes them Red, thus it increases the difficulty.

For an X-wing that doesn't have a 1-Turn, Daredevil gives it a Red 1-Turn maneuver. It doesn't increase the difficulty.

However, I think the spirit of the FFG ruling on increased difficulty would imply that the daredevil action for an X-Wing with R2 should still be red.
 
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Creed Buhallin
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Piqsid wrote:
I think FFG's broad statement of things increasing difficulty trumping would be more cut and dry if this was on a TIE, Interceptor, A-Wing, or Falcon. All 4 of those ships have a 1-Turn maneuver and they are white. Daredevil makes them Red, thus it increases the difficulty.

I don't think there's anything that says this, at least not for sure. Daredevil doesn't depend on the existent maneuver. It doesn't reference any existing maneuver on the dial. Even if the ship has one, it's not increasing the difficulty of that maneuver, it's creating a new one.

Piqsid wrote:
However, I think the spirit of the FFG ruling on increased difficulty would imply that the daredevil action for an X-Wing with R2 should still be red.

But what makes the red maneuver from Daredevil any different than any other maneuver on the dial? This one is a white 1-turn. This one is a red 1-turn. If you don't know where it comes from - and the R2 doesn't - then there's no difference. By the "spirit" of the ruling as you're trying to read it, the R2 wouldn't work on ANYTHING. If you over-apply a "worst wins" to the R2 and any maneuver, then the basic white on the dial can't be changed to green, because white is worse.

The only reason the FAQ has anything to do with this is because people are conflating a non-dial maneuver with a changed maneuver. It really doesn't apply, and trying to claim the spirit of the rules really isn't accurate here either.
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Neil, the Tusken Tactician
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You guys are great... I really appreciate all of these comments. I'll send a question to FFG.

My thinking was this - I like Wedge but I think X-wings fly like bathtubs. A-wings already have a 1-turn and don't take droids so this wouldn't be for them. Basically I want to give Wedge many more greens AND more maneuvrability.

The way I read the responses you've provided so far... Daredevil doesn't change white to red, it adds a red. R2 Astromech then trumps that red and turns it green. But maybe I read it that way because I really want to!!

I'll let you know when I get an official answer.
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Creed Buhallin
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Tusken Raider wrote:
My thinking was this - I like Wedge but I think X-wings fly like bathtubs. A-wings already have a 1-turn and don't take droids so this wouldn't be for them. Basically I want to give Wedge many more greens AND more maneuvrability.

The way I read the responses you've provided so far... Daredevil doesn't change white to red, it adds a red. R2 Astromech then trumps that red and turns it green. But maybe I read it that way because I really want to!!

As said above, I think this is right.

Just remember that if the ship doesn't have Boost, Daredevil will tear the ship apart (and bring him the passengers, he wants them alive!) Adding the Engine Upgrade to keep that from happening gets pretty expensive.
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Matthew McFarland
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iNano78 wrote:
I guess the exact wording of Daredevil is causing the hang-up. If it said "perform a 1-turn maneuver. This maneuver becomes a red maneuver," then it would clearly obey the FAQ. But because it tells you the maneuver is red, it didn't "change," so one can argue that the FAQ doesn't apply. Very hair-splitty if you ask me.


Such is the nature of the rules.

I believe if they wanted Daredevil to override R2, they would have used the same wording, i.e. "perform a 1 left/right turn and treat it as a red maneuver." Wording it the way they did, it's like having extra turns that are outside the scope of the maneuver wheel.
 
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Derrick Billings
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I did run a World's Finest build with Wedge+DD+EU+Boost...he got dogpiled and blown to smithereens, but having him pull all that aggro allowed me to position the Falcon pretty well and rip apart the enemy from behind. I almost think that the penny foolish build may be pound wise.
 
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Jeff Wilder

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This is one of the first squadrons I built using Voidstate's squadron builder:

Luke + Engine Boost + Daredevil + R2 Astromech (36)
Wedge + Engine Boost + Daredevil + R2 Astromech (37)
Gold Squadron + ICT + Proton Torps (27)

I certainly assumed the R2 turned the red maneuver green!

I got clobbered the one time I played it, but that was quite a while ago. I think I'd do okay with it now. Not great, but okay. (And it's fun!)
 
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