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Subject: Infinite loop question rss

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Oscar Iglesias
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Hardly going to happen, but lets imagine...

Whirpool --> Shadow --> Shadow --> Shadow --> Cell Portal

Whirpool dont let the runner to jack out.
Shadows gives the corp 6 credits
Cell Portal restarts the run.

Each run the corp earns 1 credit and restarts the cycle.
Runner gets 1 tag each loop.

What happens?
When does the loop ends?

It can be more ICEs or assets in the loop, like Matrix Analyzer or Junebug Project, but this is the basic for an infinite loop Oo

Edit: Caduceus ends the run, so the loop is with Shadow that only gives tags but not end the run.
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Ian Toltz
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The onus is on the runner to end the run.
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TK Number 3
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I thought the ruling was the other way. The runner is unable to end the run, and it is through the action of the corp (rezzing cell portal) that the run is an infinite loop. Therefore the corp must say how many times he will perform the action, so the onus is on the corp to end the loop.
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Ony Moose
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Well if you remove the whirlpool, the runner has to jack out after naming how many times he will do the loop.

If you add the whirlpool, we don't know for sure what happens as there isn't a ruling yet.

There might be a new rule in the next FAQ saying that runner is trapped in cyberspace forever and dies of old age in the loop. Or possibly the run will end after the corp names a number of iterations. Or the corp will have to name the number of iterations and then not rez the cell portal to let the runner in. But then that seems strange that if the whirlpool was rezed the runner gets into the server, but if the whirlpool was not then the runner can be prevented by the cell portal.
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Oscar Iglesias
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What is that "onus" you talk about?
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TK Number 3
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Shkar wrote:
What is that "onus" you talk about?


Don't want this to come across as snarky, it is just easier than me trying to explain it:

Onus
Noun
Used to refer to something that is one's duty or responsibility: "the onus is on you to show that you have suffered".

And I agree, there will have to be a ruling regarding Whirlpool for this one I think.
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Kandiru wrote:
Well if you remove the whirlpool, the runner has to jack out after naming how many times he will do the loop.

If you add the whirlpool, we don't know for sure what happens as there isn't a ruling yet.

Seems like the answer should be clear. The only reason there's an infinite loop is because the Corp is deciding to rez Cell Portal. If the corp decides not to rez it, the run will continue and eventually end.

A corp player who chooses to keep rezzing Cell Portal for no reason in this scenario is like someone who takes five minutes to shuffle their deck. It's an unsporting delay of the game.

Re: your edit:
Quote:
There might be a new rule in the next FAQ saying that runner is trapped in cyberspace forever and dies of old age in the loop. Or possibly the run will end after the corp names a number of iterations. Or the corp will have to name the number of iterations and then not rez the cell portal to let the runner in. But then that seems strange that if the whirlpool was rezed the runner gets into the server, but if the whirlpool was not then the runner can be prevented by the cell portal.


The corp presumably knew what they were getting into when they chose to rez Whirlpool. If the corp didn't want to remove the runner's ability to end the run, then the corp wouldn't have done so. It's the difference between "haha, you've fallen into my infinitely looping, redirecting path of misdirection, and now you can't get in" versus "I am sucking you into an infinite loop so I can exploit a combo an arbitrary number of times, then end it".
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Arto H
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Player who is making the infinite loop to happen (have the power to stop it) says how many times (X) he will do the loop and then stops doing it. So in that situation corp can't rez Cell Portal final time (otherwise gets penalty for stalling) and runner ends with 3X tags and Corp gets X creds.
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Hugo L
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There was a similar discussion for a similar situation. The difference in this scenario is the runner is able to jack out.

The answer was then

Jeremy Larner wrote:
I asked FFG this question a couple of months ago. The ruling is that in the case of cell portal, the runner has to declare how many times they will go round the loop, and then they must jack out. If they continue past this point in a tournament they are considered to be stalling.


So I guess one could argue that in your case, the corp say how many times they execute the loop (1 trillion times) then must not raise cell portal anymore and let the runner in.
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TK Number 3
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Kandiru wrote:
Well if you remove the whirlpool, the runner has to jack out after naming how many times he will do the loop.

If you add the whirlpool, we don't know for sure what happens as there isn't a ruling yet.

There might be a new rule in the next FAQ saying that runner is trapped in cyberspace forever and dies of old age in the loop. Or possibly the run will end after the corp names a number of iterations. Or the corp will have to name the number of iterations and then not rez the cell portal to let the runner in. But then that seems strange that if the whirlpool was rezed the runner gets into the server, but if the whirlpool was not then the runner can be prevented by the cell portal.


I think it would also get tricky in the Whirlpool->shadow->shadow->cell portal case, as the two shawdows result in a change of game state (tags and corp credits), unlike an infinite loop with no change in game state. I'd love to see a "runner trapped forever and dies of old age" rule. It would make cell portal amazing, only need whirlpool->cell portal and akitaro/braintrust tokens.
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David Kempe-Cook
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This is more likely with Akitaro/ Braintrust since they're in faction.

I don't want to speculate because I could see the ruling going either way. Whirlpool begs for a FAQ.
 
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Oscar Iglesias
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And in the case ending the loop means losing the game, how it is handle?

For example, runner got 5 agenda points and theres a 2 point agenda after the cell portal.

If corp ends the loop he loses, but if he does not end the game blocks.
 
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TKNumber3 wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
Well if you remove the whirlpool, the runner has to jack out after naming how many times he will do the loop.

If you add the whirlpool, we don't know for sure what happens as there isn't a ruling yet.

There might be a new rule in the next FAQ saying that runner is trapped in cyberspace forever and dies of old age in the loop. Or possibly the run will end after the corp names a number of iterations. Or the corp will have to name the number of iterations and then not rez the cell portal to let the runner in. But then that seems strange that if the whirlpool was rezed the runner gets into the server, but if the whirlpool was not then the runner can be prevented by the cell portal.


I think it would also get tricky in the Whirlpool->shadow->shadow->cell portal case, as the two shawdows result in a change of game state (tags and corp credits), unlike an infinite loop with no change in game state. I'd love to see a "runner trapped forever and dies of old age" rule. It would make cell portal amazing, only need whirlpool->cell portal and akitaro/braintrust tokens.

Unfortunately for you that ruling would make no sense. It would lead to unfun games. Infinite loops should always have an end in games like that that don't result in death. Well.. unless it's an infinite loop of brain damage of course.
That death is acceptable. hahah.
 
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Ony Moose
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New rules aren't without precedent, when we asked about Datamine and a server being destroyed mid-run the rule for runs ending immediately and not being counted as successful or unsuccessful was added to the next FAQ.

What happens if there is an ICE in the future which would keep Cell Portal Rezzed? (EG, an upgrade in the server which can prevent an ICE from being Derezzed) Or a criminal event:RUN which requires the corp to expose and rez any approached ICE if it can afford it? Then we do have an infinite looop neither player can end.

I'd like a rule about runners being trapped in cyberspace forever, why should the corp let them into the server when they can keep them spinning in cyberspace earning the corp credits? Or alternatively runs end after encountering 100 ICE.
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Shkar wrote:
And in the case ending the loop means losing the game, how it is handle?

For example, runner got 5 agenda points and theres a 2 point agenda after the cell portal.

If corp ends the loop he loses, but if he does not end the game blocks.

What's on the server should be irrelevant.
 
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Adam Perry
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i think if the runner can't get in, it was the corp who set up the loop, so they should be the one rewarded for setting it up. it should run x amount of times, and then the run should fail.
 
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TK Number 3
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corkysru wrote:
TKNumber3 wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
Well if you remove the whirlpool, the runner has to jack out after naming how many times he will do the loop.

If you add the whirlpool, we don't know for sure what happens as there isn't a ruling yet.

There might be a new rule in the next FAQ saying that runner is trapped in cyberspace forever and dies of old age in the loop. Or possibly the run will end after the corp names a number of iterations. Or the corp will have to name the number of iterations and then not rez the cell portal to let the runner in. But then that seems strange that if the whirlpool was rezed the runner gets into the server, but if the whirlpool was not then the runner can be prevented by the cell portal.


I think it would also get tricky in the Whirlpool->shadow->shadow->cell portal case, as the two shawdows result in a change of game state (tags and corp credits), unlike an infinite loop with no change in game state. I'd love to see a "runner trapped forever and dies of old age" rule. It would make cell portal amazing, only need whirlpool->cell portal and akitaro/braintrust tokens.

Unfortunately for you that ruling would make no sense. It would lead to unfun games. Infinite loops should always have an end in games like that that don't result in death. Well.. unless it's an infinite loop of brain damage of course.
That death is acceptable. hahah.


I agree it would not be a fun strategy to play against, the better option is to infinite loop through a neural katana

However it is also unfortunate that if the runner has 5 agenda points scored, you can theoretically keep him out of your server, but it doesn't work. Maybe the runner's connection times out during an infinite loop?
Edit: I do agree with above that the contents of the server should not decide the rule, that would just get messy.

I think the ruling will say the corp has to name how many times they rez cell portal, so the corp just needs to avoid having that situation occur.
 
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Ony Moose
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Modifications:
What if the loop is:
Whirlpool->Shadow->Shadow->Shadow->Enigma->CellPortal

But the runner has a Yogg installed, and a compromised employee. Now the runner and the corp gain 1 money each cycle round. The runner can also end the run by not breaking the enigma with Yogg. The corp can end the run by not rezzing cell portal.

Does either of them have to yield? Which ones has to yield? In this case the previous ruling would seem to imply the runner has to eventually choose not to break the enigma and end the run?

Followups:
What if the runner has a PersonalWorkshop with a parasite on it (and 2 datasucker counters) If the runner trashes the enigma do they then get in?
 
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TK Number 3
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Kandiru wrote:
Modifications:
What if the loop is:
Whirlpool->Shadow->Shadow->Shadow->Enigma->CellPortal

But the runner has a Yogg installed, and a compromised employee. Now the runner and the corp gain 1 money each cycle round. The runner can also end the run by not breaking the enigma with Yogg. The corp can end the run by not rezzing cell portal.

Does either of them have to yield? Which ones has to yield? In this case the previous ruling would seem to imply the runner has to eventually choose not to break the enigma and end the run?


I think the runner would have to say how many times breaking enigma, as it is encountered before cell portal.

Realistically, we can come up with 1000 situations where this can be an issue, so until the card is actually released and we can get a ruling, this isn't much help to us.
 
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Bobby Picker
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I could see an errata issued for Cell Portal stating:

- The Runner approaches the outmost piece of ICE protecting the attacked server. Runner may jack out of current run. Derez Cell Portal

This would be a "cleaner" fix IMHO.
 
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TK Number 3
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Vandal2002 wrote:
I could see an errata issued for Cell Portal stating:

- The Runner approaches the outmost piece of ICE protecting the attacked server. Runner may jack out of current run. Derez Cell Portal

This would be a "cleaner" fix IMHO.


except this would neuter any combo of whirlpool->neural katana->cell portal.

I think it will just be an infinite loop ruling. Guess we will see though.
 
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Andrew B
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They can just add a neutral debug console that adds break statements, thus ending the infinite loop.
 
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Ben Asher
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Such a ruling already exists. The other corp side infinite loop that already exists is TMI, and the verdict was that the corp states how many times TMI was going to be rezzed, after which the run continued (or not) as normal. There isn't anything fundamentally different about this case, so why is it causing confusion?
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Aaron Morgan
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Vandal2002 wrote:
I could see an errata issued for Cell Portal stating:

- The Runner approaches the outmost piece of ICE protecting the attacked server. Runner may jack out of current run. Derez Cell Portal

This would be a "cleaner" fix IMHO.


Why would that even be necessary? The Runner has an opportunity to jack out after approaching any but the first piece of ice on a run (the above Whirlpool exception nonwithstanding).
 
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Steven Steck
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TKNumber3 wrote:
Vandal2002 wrote:
I could see an errata issued for Cell Portal stating:

- The Runner approaches the outmost piece of ICE protecting the attacked server. Runner may jack out of current run. Derez Cell Portal

This would be a "cleaner" fix IMHO.


except this would neuter any combo of whirlpool->neural katana->cell portal.

I think it will just be an infinite loop ruling. Guess we will see though.


Actually, it wouldn't have any effect on it. As pointed out in the spoiler thread a "Cannot" rules clause trumps any "Can" or "May" clause unless specifically stated.

So Whirlpool would prevent the runner from jacking out, even though cell portal (with the proposed errata) says the runner can.
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